If im not mistaken on the cover of sdj 2002 august there is what was said to be recoreded as the longest match between two females at 4:40 BOTH bitches had redboy blood in them. Hooker red and Georgia girl. And if you look at the top spots on the ROM list Tab, Deacon,May day, yellow all have that blood in them too so i cant agree with the statement that they demote lines.
You are mistaken (50%).Originally Posted by Wise
The dog who won, Georgia Girl, was a heavy Hollingsworth bitch (3/4 Dolly/Polly on top), with Heavy Nigerino + a lil Chinaman on bottom. She was only 6% Redboy. The Hollignsworth/Chinaman dogs have done awesome too.
The dog who lost, Hooker Red, was indeed heavy Redboy, so you're right about that. But I do believe she was the one who eventually quit the the Hollingsworth cross, so please re-visit my first post about what Tony Robinson said about the Hollignsworth dogs vs. the Redboy dogs ...
You either didn't really read what I said to Evo, or you have trouble with comprehending what you read, but I already addressed the issue of Yellow/Mayday, etc.
Jack
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=4364
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=20953
Seriously,
This is splitting hairs. I guarantee you many bloodlines out there wish they've seen 4:40. It's a tribute to both bloodlines. MY OPINION, Bolio Tombstone adds extreme gameness, ability, durability, and front end finish (throat), face crunches, redboy jocko adds very good air, extreme gameness, thick skin, back end finish (styful), and find a way to win plan b and c dogs. Point is they both are a great line of bulldogs, which is why I base my yard on half from each. If I had to choose, it'd be a hard decision. I personally think my dogs take more after the Bolio tombstone lines, but I won't downplay the relevance of rbj blood as it is half of my genetic contribution.
Putting aside the numerous champions Gr. Ch. Yellow produced, and they are many. The forgotten breeding was the Yellow John x greens Sandy breeding, Produced Gr. Ch. John boy, Ch. Toro,, greens hitman 2x, and super gnats boots.. Who went 4:52 in his second beating the time of both aforementioned candidates. Anyhow, when it comes to these two lines, in my opinion... The two are the two very best. Rank em how you want
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...d=423&sex_id=3
Agree it's a tribute to both lines; I also believe splitting hairs (like splitting atoms) is sometimes necessary ... and can likewise sometimes be explosive
I actually believe more hair-splitting is necessary
I think most Bolio/Tombstone dogs are thin-boned curs (Bolio more so;
By constrast the right Bolio/Tombstone dogs are some of the gamest/smartest best dogs on earth IMO.
In other words, you're not just selecting any B/T dogs, you're selecting BUCK and LADY IN RED DOGS, aren't you
Same thing with "RBJ" dogs; some of those are long-haired, fat-tailed curs as well ... but the right RBJ dogs are what you just described. (Although I would say Bolio dogs are smarter and more prone to having a "Plan b and c" than RBJ dogs ...)
I think certain segments of these families are great ... while others are not so great.
I think the BUCK/Hollingsworth dogs are the best of their line (Boyles too) ... and Yellow-type dogs are the best of those dog. I realize there are some small, very private pockets of similar dogs that are also good, so I am speaking very broadly.
Quite frankly, I don't think your dogs have much Tombstone blood in there at all, and might more properly be called "Buck/Yellow" dogs ...
If I personally had to choose between pure Redboy and pure Buck/Hollingsworth, I would choose the Buck/Hollingsworth in a NY second ...
I think Machobuck was cleary a Buck dog with the bone density of Mayday. That density came from the Hollingsworth blood IMO, but of course there's no way to say for sure, it's just an opinion.
Jack
Well, again, I already acknowledged 2 things: 1) that I am well aware of all the great dogs down from certain Redboy elements, and 2) that the RB/JOCKO dogs in particular were magic, but I give a lot of that credit to JOCKO ... and Sandy was just another Vernon Jackson dog that created a similar "magic mix" ... And if you look at Jocko, you can see he is the one bringing the speed.
But that was also a long, long time ago ...
All I can say is the ones my dogs have faced in today's game have damned near all QUIT ... especially without any Yellow in there ... but sometimes with it in there. When they lose, it's not DG, it's by standing there taking the count. ALMOST ALWAYS. So I don't see how it can be called a "game" line ...
But at no time did I say there weren't any historically-game Redboy dogs, I am just talking about what I have experienced lately, and for quite some time.
In the present day, I think MOST of the "pure Redboy" dogs I have personally seen have not been anywhere near what I would call "game" ... and most have been slow and not too bright either. When I see "a pure Redboy dog," I am not thinking "game" ... I am thinking slow, dumb, so-so-game dog ... that will quit at some point.
People just assume that "pure Redboy dogs" are game on average ... or in high-percentage ... and I truly think they are NOT, not like the pure Hollingsworth dogs used to be, and not like my dogs are. They quit to mine almost every time.
Again, I am speaking of straight battlecrosses I see people making today, not of Yellow, or Yellow John's sons of times long passed. I am talking about TODAY ... of taking some "pure Redboy" dog ... and making a "battle cross" with it. I think most aren't worth a plug nickel, quite frankly. Not the ones I've seen at any rate.
Hooker Red is a great example of one who was (well, almost dead game). She was off of Crews' Rocky, a legitimately great producer. And HERE IS THE KEY: I am sure there are certain SELECTED great Redboy INDIVIDUAL producers ... but I don't think "the line itself" is anything to write home about.
Back in the day, when you said "Hollingsworth dog" ... you said GAME (essentially). It didn't matter which one you were pointing at, they were damned near all game, and you would either lose to it or it would take you 2+ hours to beat it (and you'd die after you did).
That same truth does not apply when you say "Redboy dog" ... not even close. It seems to me you're lucky to find a truly game Redboy dog.
That is my message and opinion, and of course others may differ
Jack
Some things are on point, some I agree, some is irrefutable. I agree, about the difference in bolio dogs and hollingsworth, it's why I made the breeding with hollingsworth bull. And yes. My dogs are mostly buck. .. Like Mr. Machobuck, but Machobear has more hollingsworth mixed in. Yes Machobuck was Buck in a Mayday body. .. Be it hollingsworth or yellow. And yes. . I believe redboy dogs have been over bred, but I've seen dogs off Hatfield's Taz consistently produce make you cry game dogs with a plethora of bitches. Who is a gamer line as a whole, tough to beat hollingsworth, I even think gamer than yellow or buck line slightly. . My absolute favorite breeding of all time was the Mayday - Blondie breeding. It was a masterpiece. A grand champion son of Grandchampion and best producing rbj dog of all time, bred to one of the best producing bitches of all time straight from old man Hollingsworth's yard. Bottom was out of a grand champion who who beat a grand champion bolio tombstone dog, to one of the best producing rbj gyps out of yellow from litters that were consistent. Mayday, choice, dragonlady, Madonna on top, Gr. Ch. Yellowbuck and ch. Piggy on bottom. I've tried to breed around that, adding tonka bear , deadlift, your stuff.. . Always keeping around the same %. 50-50..next few years will tell the tale.
I was right there at the beginning of the straight Red Boy x Cleo etc. crosses. Owned a full brother of Red Boy's litter formally owned by Louis Miles. The brindle black nose dog's name was Bouncer. I had another named Liz out of Red Boy and Martin's lady. Louis had a small yard of Red Boy dogs bred around Bass' Cleo.
Another dog man by the name of Rowell had another bitch named Fancy. Fancy was out of Bass' Tramp Red Boy x Bass' Cleo. Rowell bred up at least one cross of Davis' Chivo or Davis' Boomerang to Fancy. He got some match dogs off that breeding.
F. Jacob's also bred the Boze dog to his Hog bitch that was Red boy bred. There were other's that had those dogs as Red Boy was bred by Martin/Bass/ and Katie when each person owned Tramp Red Boy. The Red Boy dogs were real popular among the Pembroke Indians. A lot of those dogs not all came red/red nose and given Indian names. Great marketing scheme.
Now for the rest of the story and my experience with some Red boy dogs. First nothing was ever done with the Bouncer dog. He was a average dog with average ability. A ex Navy Seal by the name of R. Goodson took the dog and kept it for a pet.
Louis Miles swore to me one of his black bitches off Red Boy and Cleo was a game acting bitch and had a good mouth. Was a nice looking black bitch. I matched her into a bitch owned by Rex Byrd. Rex had a fast hard driving, shoulder biting dog. Miles Red Boy bitch curred and ran in less than ten minutes.
Later V. Jackson came down and rolled his young Banjo dog on my Liz bitch. Banjo was the better dog and since Liz had a gimp leg gave Liz to my brother. Liz was a game dog and had a full brother owned by Rowell named Ringo. Ringo was a very good dog. These two dogs were Red Boy x Bullet breeding.
Later V. Jackson matched my Stagger Lee bitch into one of Rowell's B. Davis x Fancy bred bitches. Was a good match but Stagger Lee out fought and out bit Rowell's dog two to one.
Later on down the road I rolled my little Jake dog on one of J. Spruill's dogs that outweighed my dog by a good ten pounds or more. Spruill had some smaller dogs but wanted to use this dog. He had bought this dog from Jacobs. This dog was red &white with a red nose and yellow eyes. Probably some of the Boze x Hog dog cross. I agreed to let it go for five but no longer than ten minutes due to the weight difference and my dog right off the chain. My little Jake dog had it rough for around five minutes. Till he shot in the back end and curred this big dog out. Spruill was furious as he had paid some good money for that dog.
My Face bitch was matched once into one of Jacobs Ch Red Boy bitches and later a extra rough Carver x Red Boy cross of Jacob and Johnson. My Face bitch curred and killed both these bitches in under ten minutes.
There were two other matches where Bass and Katie matched two different Red Boy bitches. One into Molly Bee and one into J. Johnson's Rage bitch. Both Red Boy bitches curred and died real fast after Molly Bee and Rage got their mouths on them. After both of those matches started and Bass saw what the out come was going to be. He hauled ass with all the gate money and did not honor his bets. Most dog men quit messing with Bass and he died not many years after that last match with the Rage bitch.
Now all this is my opinion and my in site. I had sorry dogs as well but I had some real go getters. When V.J. was at the top of his game. Bass or Katie never sent us any weights. I saw Straight /Red Boy dogs rolling or going against other Red boy dogs. They would go and go and scratch and scratch. But was no real damage was being done. When a hard biting, corner pile driving dog got one. It was over real fast.
Back then Bass liked to go around to us younger beginner dog men's yard. Challenge us to four week matches with him holding the forfeit. He was a real peach of a Guy. My friend A. Howle kept his dogs lean and in pre keep shape. Howle had some Cotton's Bullet x Carver's Tiger Jack dogs. Bass was down our way in a local get together and jab session. He was throwing out some weights and wanting to go in four weeks. So Howle took his weight on one of his Red Boy bitches. Had a neutral person to hold the forfeit. When the show went down. Howle beat Bass' Red BOY bitch dog like a red headed step child. Howle was competing and holding his own against dog men like M. Gainey so he had dogs with mouth and gaminess.
I was really surprised when I got to looking at all these newer bred dogs. To find so much Red Boy crossed to these other blood lines. Especially to good Carver lines that I felt were being diluted down with a lesser who knew how they were bred local bulldogs. So over time with Katie and Mims having control over this line and culling real hard and out crossing them. The dogs got much better.
Do not wish to sound like I am putting any ones dogs down. Have put off writing this. I had plenty of sorry dogs of my own. I was more comfortable with the pedigrees off my Coplin/Heinzl dogs than trying to figure out what the Red boy line came from. They were Katie's dogs and she was doing her thing. Was very successful I might add. I preferred to do my own thing. Cheers
Last edited by CYJ; 05-22-2023 at 12:22 PM.
Nice history, as always, CYJ.
Ultimately, I too preferred doing my own thing.
As they say, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
The best way to get dogs "like you want" is to breed those dogs which have those traits together, try to lock it in, and then "keep doing what you're doing."
If your dogs keep curring to everybody else's, then you're doing something wrong.
If everyone else's dogs keep curring to yours, then you're doing something right.
Sounds like you were doing something right.
Cheers,
Jack
Seems like there are times when splitting hairs is necessary, especially when it comes to dogs and the finer points of discussion. While I can't begin to even touch Mr. Y's experience with dogs coming right from Redboy, I can add my .02.
I would have to agree with him that somewhere, over time, those dogs did get a lot better. Somehow, those dogs got noted for gameness, and there's usually only one way to truly be noted for such things. The Redboy dogs that I've seen and/or owned that consistently showed the gameness those dogs were noted for came from Deacon, Mike & Co's Mangler, and Voyles' Little John. We're all aware who Deacon was during his day. The Deacon dogs I'll speak on were Frosty Paws and Ch.Becky. Mangler was from a breeding of Bingo/Bliss and was located in TN. Voyles' Little John was a Redboy/Jocko breeding right from Fletcher when he was alive. Sure, all of those dogs had offspring that quit. There's simply no way around that, but what they did on a regular basis, whether getting checked or getting matched was show their gameness when it was called upon.
Those dogs showed that as they were consistently bred for that gameness, and there have been quite a few extreme cases bred from those particular individual dogs. The only one of those dogs that had a lot of inbreeding done with it was Little John. It wasn't until the end when his owner started simply trying to get dogs off him that all of that suffered some on the dog's production standpoint. Mangler wasn't bred as much as he should be, but his ability to produce dogs that could win and stay there during a long, brutal war was proven time and time again. The Kottonmouth dog that BCC had was off Mangler, and that dog was bred extensively to their Rags blood. He carried on the Mangler tradition for those guys. The dogs I saw down from Becky were bred by a man who really became obsessed with the gameness aspect of dogs. Good or bad, he was the only person, or yard, that I ever visited that gameness was seriously the number one priority. It wasn't the ability to win a match, bite you down, etc. It was simply the ability to show what the dog was made of in the most dire circumstances. It was always an interesting time at his house some years ago. My Frosty Paws dog was bred by WCC, and he wasn't any household name of a dog. He was simply a dog that had the ability to produce a game dog, show dog, etc on a regular basis. My yard still carries a very heavy influence of him to this day, and it will for some times to come.
I wrote all of that to simply say this. If someone wants Redboy dogs for gameness consistently, you need to find a person that is breeding those dogs with that in mind. It's fairly easy to get online and find a super heavy Redboy bred dog and hope it's a game dog. The sad reality is most of those individuals really have no idea what that really means. That is why I wouldn't buy any Redboy type dogs from anyone, save maybe one person at this time. The line simply isn't based on the gameness it was originally noted for any longer.
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