INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[Officially Retired]

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

This is a great point and rebuttal.

I personally think Stormbringer could have won 10 in the right hands, as not a single dog his size could come close to whipping one side of him (many dogs which later sent out there that won over top dogmen).

Still, my "thinking" Stormbringer could win that many isn't the same as his actually winning that many.

In hindsight, since he went sterile, I should have tried to put him with a good conditioner and just let him do his thing.

However, I did what you mention, tried to breed every bitch I had to him ... and lost everything because he stopped producing pups at 4 years of age

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

With Buck, his last one probably took all the steam out him, going 3+ hours.

I wouldn't match any dog after it did that.

I think Molly got stolen, and I think Honeybunch quit and then was "re-named" on the match report

Bolio was exceptional, but I am not sure he was 9xW quality. You can only go 2 hours so many times ...

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.
EWO

Again, I totally see this.

However, the flipside is, these are individual examples

There will always be "individual examples" of every bloodline ... dogs that someone says "could have" won 9 ... "if only" ...

The point I am making is, despite THOUSANDS of dogs out there, with EVERY line ... and even with due consideration give to all of the random "if only" individual stories that EVERY line faces ... some of these lines actually produce dogs that STILL manage get actual, living 7-, 8-, and 9xW winners ... quite a few in fact ... while others NEVER DO.

So yeah, many people THINK their dog "might have won" 8-10x ... or have legitimate reasons to retire ... but in some lines real, living 7-9xWs never actually happen ... EVER ... whereas in some lines they do happen, several times.

Which brings us right back to my point

[Officially Retired]

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing.

That is how I always thought, as a breeder.

However, as sort of an historian since concocting this site, and after crunching the numbers, being involved in a DOY selection ... and spending enough time NOT breeding dogs ... I am starting to think that dogs with the potential ought to have that potential realized.

Also, I am starting to pull my head back far enough from "the trees" of my own bloodline to see the forest of all lines ... and what combinations have produced multi-winners more frequently than others.

If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

Again, that is how I have always looked at things, from a breeder's standpoint, as well as a "he proved he's a bulldog" standpoint.

Even from a realistic standpoint, a dog that really had to show a lot of gameness is typically shot after that. It's not really fair to make them have to do that again.

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

Again, I have always felt this way to an extent.

As a breeder, I didn't need to have Silverback "win" ... I knew he had winning traits. Winning 1 or 10 wasn't going to make his sperm any better.

However, as mentioned, from the point of view (now) as sort of a record-keeper and historian, I wish I would have given him (Stormbringer, Icon, and some others) the chance to go all the way.

Strictly from the standpoint of breeding, I knew all I needed to know to make effective breeding decisions.

However, regarding the history of the sport, and and REALLY seeing if they could take their place in history, and where they'd stand, I didn't even think about that before.

I sure do now ...

Jack

[CrazyRed]

Hey Jack just a quick except, it wasn't Honey that quit and got renamed in match report, it was her son Ch Charlie.. After her last show is when JC bought her to breed her.

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack just a quick except, it wasn't Honey that quit and got renamed in match report, it was her son Ch Charlie.. After her last show is when JC bought her to breed her.

Hi;

It may be both. Didn't know about Charlie being renamed.

There were several old-timers in TN who said they were when Honey quit.

I don't know, of course, as I wasn't.

But that is a topic for another thread maybe

Jack

[EWO]

There is an older fellow here in NC who was at Honeybunch's 4th match and swears she was pushed from the corner and the other bitch quit on he turn to go.

Similar thought process with Bolio, on one side of the coin history has told us what happened and the other side of the coin is a 'series of what if's?' What if Sonny had Bolio instead of Patrick? What if Honeybunch was put down after the supposed quit? There would be two very large chapters in the book of dogs that would be missing. And at the same time maybe the two fill-in chapters would have a better story to tell.

Great topic. Great series of posts. The best threads always seem to get off topic and naturally work their way back to the original subject. A lot like conversation. EWO