redboy dogs

[evolutionkennels]

Seems like there are times when splitting hairs is necessary, especially when it comes to dogs and the finer points of discussion. While I can't begin to even touch Mr. Y's experience with dogs coming right from Redboy, I can add my .02.

I would have to agree with him that somewhere, over time, those dogs did get a lot better. Somehow, those dogs got noted for gameness, and there's usually only one way to truly be noted for such things. The Redboy dogs that I've seen and/or owned that consistently showed the gameness those dogs were noted for came from Deacon, Mike & Co's Mangler, and Voyles' Little John. We're all aware who Deacon was during his day. The Deacon dogs I'll speak on were Frosty Paws and Ch.Becky. Mangler was from a breeding of Bingo/Bliss and was located in TN. Voyles' Little John was a Redboy/Jocko breeding right from Fletcher when he was alive. Sure, all of those dogs had offspring that quit. There's simply no way around that, but what they did on a regular basis, whether getting checked or getting matched was show their gameness when it was called upon.

Those dogs showed that as they were consistently bred for that gameness, and there have been quite a few extreme cases bred from those particular individual dogs. The only one of those dogs that had a lot of inbreeding done with it was Little John. It wasn't until the end when his owner started simply trying to get dogs off him that all of that suffered some on the dog's production standpoint. Mangler wasn't bred as much as he should be, but his ability to produce dogs that could win and stay there during a long, brutal war was proven time and time again. The Kottonmouth dog that BCC had was off Mangler, and that dog was bred extensively to their Rags blood. He carried on the Mangler tradition for those guys. The dogs I saw down from Becky were bred by a man who really became obsessed with the gameness aspect of dogs. Good or bad, he was the only person, or yard, that I ever visited that gameness was seriously the number one priority. It wasn't the ability to win a match, bite you down, etc. It was simply the ability to show what the dog was made of in the most dire circumstances. It was always an interesting time at his house some years ago. My Frosty Paws dog was bred by WCC, and he wasn't any household name of a dog. He was simply a dog that had the ability to produce a game dog, show dog, etc on a regular basis. My yard still carries a very heavy influence of him to this day, and it will for some times to come.

I wrote all of that to simply say this. If someone wants Redboy dogs for gameness consistently, you need to find a person that is breeding those dogs with that in mind. It's fairly easy to get online and find a super heavy Redboy bred dog and hope it's a game dog. The sad reality is most of those individuals really have no idea what that really means. That is why I wouldn't buy any Redboy type dogs from anyone, save maybe one person at this time. The line simply isn't based on the gameness it was originally noted for any longer.

I would take a dog off Hatfield's Taz bred to a dalmatian.. Seen that many good game you cry game ones off him

[FrostyPaws]

I would take a dog off Hatfield's Taz bred to a dalmatian.. Seen that many good game you cry game ones off him

And that's where you and I are different, as I'm sure we all are in regards to some ways. I would take plenty of dogs off Taz. That doesn't mean I would breed them when I'm finished. I look at breeding dogs as a complete thing, not a 50% thing. I've owned dogs off Little John, and even my own dog, that I never had the intentions of breeding. I can think of quite a few examples of dogs such as you describe, that when bred, produced dick. They couldn't reproduce the gameness they showed. Possibly it could be they just weren't producers, but to a T of the dogs I'm thinking of, they were always 1/4 or 1/2 bred from something not noted for that gameness and/or produced it on such a rare basis I never wanted to feed it again.

So, I agree in taking a dog off Taz and doing whatever with. Just as I would take anything off Frosty, at this point, or Little John. But that's not a guarantee to be bred and carry in the program simply because of that.

[waccamaw]

Nothing like a real 50/50 Redboy /Jocko dog ,all around total package dogs .and it crosses with anything.

[EWO]

Good series of posts. In our neck of the woods the Mims Redboy dogs are a mainstay. His Redboy dogs are down from Redboy himself and then thru K. Marlowe. I was a young kid back then but the guy that turned me onto dogs bought dogs both straight off Red boy and then later thru K. Marlowe as well. He was a hard man to please and he was hard on his dogs, to the point if it was still there at two years old it had not only been to death's door, but stepped in to see how the other half lived. With that said...

He owned JR, which was straight off Redboy, littermate to Yellow John. He was the type of dog that got the myths and fallacies going. He would stay all night but had little to no mouth. It was said back then every hair on his body had to be killed individually to the tip of his tail and he would then make on more naked scratch.

Lots of people back then were far more impressed with wins than attributes or production records. Redboy dogs were staying all night, winning gamest in show, but seldom had enough left to come back out, or even live that night. Thus the crosses. Another thing (side note) that has always surprised me is when the Redboy and Jocko dogs were crossed the Jocko dogs were doing the winning and in the beginning they were Jocko-Redboy dogs not RBJ. In time the Redboy dogs were crossed into other dogs, several different strains of Redboy started and Redboy gained/led in the popularity polls. In time Jocko took a backseat. Unless one was running those dogs they were referred to as "dumb ol' Jocko-Redboy dogs.

Mr. Mims made a blend of the Redboy dogs to his Snooty dogs and the influx from Clemen's Midnite (littlermate to Bull Boy Bob). In time they were blended so well it was more a Mims dog rather than a Redboy-Snooty-Bolio dog. He knew his dogs and within the the Redboy family he had three very prominent stud dogs, who were all three 'straight/pure bred Redboy dogs, all three were different in style and produced very well when bred to the "Snooty/Bolio" or "Bolio/Snooty" bitches.

Of the Redboy strains I have always preferred what came from Mr. Mims., and especially those dogs bred to certain bitches he had (Lucky and Rainbow). Over the years we have tried many of the Redboy strains, straight and crossed, and always end up leaning back toward the Mims heavy Redboy dogs.

Granted, one or two dogs from a line can't be true indicators. That would be unfair. We had two Deacon dogs, one straight off Deacon and another off of Deacon Jr. to a daughter of Deacon. Both bit very hard, not just hard for a Redboy dog but bit very hard period, but neither had forty minutes in him. So we again leaned back to the Mims dogs. We tried dogs from D. Cottingham, a little more success with them, but the few we had lacked durability. Again, back to the Mims dogs.

This is just my opinion, but I think Redboy, like a lot of lines, fell victim to its own popularity. Go to any message board and type "Pure Redboy" then type in "Pure Buck", "Pure Poncho" "Pure Bolio", "Pure whatever" and watch the number of views. The redboy dogs will always win. Couple this with these dogs being sold for $$$ to any one with $$$ and the strain itself has to suffer. Another debate pops up along the same lines as Frosty pointed out, being Redboy is not as near as important as being whose Redboy. EWO

[evolutionkennels]

Good series of posts. In our neck of the woods the Mims Redboy dogs are a mainstay. His Redboy dogs are down from Redboy himself and then thru K. Marlowe. I was a young kid back then but the guy that turned me onto dogs bought dogs both straight off Red boy and then later thru K. Marlowe as well. He was a hard man to please and he was hard on his dogs, to the point if it was still there at two years old it had not only been to death's door, but stepped in to see how the other half lived. With that said...

He owned JR, which was straight off Redboy, littermate to Yellow John. He was the type of dog that got the myths and fallacies going. He would stay all night but had little to no mouth. It was said back then every hair on his body had to be killed individually to the tip of his tail and he would then make on more naked scratch.

Lots of people back then were far more impressed with wins than attributes or production records. Redboy dogs were staying all night, winning gamest in show, but seldom had enough left to come back out, or even live that night. Thus the crosses. Another thing (side note) that has always surprised me is when the Redboy and Jocko dogs were crossed the Jocko dogs were doing the winning and in the beginning they were Jocko-Redboy dogs not RBJ. In time the Redboy dogs were crossed into other dogs, several different strains of Redboy started and Redboy gained/led in the popularity polls. In time Jocko took a backseat. Unless one was running those dogs they were referred to as "dumb ol' Jocko-Redboy dogs.

Mr. Mims made a blend of the Redboy dogs to his Snooty dogs and the influx from Clemen's Midnite (littlermate to Bull Boy Bob). In time they were blended so well it was more a Mims dog rather than a Redboy-Snooty-Bolio dog. He knew his dogs and within the the Redboy family he had three very prominent stud dogs, who were all three 'straight/pure bred Redboy dogs, all three were different in style and produced very well when bred to the "Snooty/Bolio" or "Bolio/Snooty" bitches.

Of the Redboy strains I have always preferred what came from Mr. Mims., and especially those dogs bred to certain bitches he had (Lucky and Rainbow). Over the years we have tried many of the Redboy strains, straight and crossed, and always end up leaning back toward the Mims heavy Redboy dogs.

Granted, one or two dogs from a line can't be true indicators. That would be unfair. We had two Deacon dogs, one straight off Deacon and another off of Deacon Jr. to a daughter of Deacon. Both bit very hard, not just hard for a Redboy dog but bit very hard period, but neither had forty minutes in him. So we again leaned back to the Mims dogs. We tried dogs from D. Cottingham, a little more success with them, but the few we had lacked durability. Again, back to the Mims dogs.

This is just my opinion, but I think Redboy, like a lot of lines, fell victim to its own popularity. Go to any message board and type "Pure Redboy" then type in "Pure Buck", "Pure Poncho" "Pure Bolio", "Pure whatever" and watch the number of views. The redboy dogs will always win. Couple this with these dogs being sold for $$$ to any one with $$$ and the strain itself has to suffer. Another debate pops up along the same lines as Frosty pointed out, being Redboy is not as near as important as being whose Redboy. EWO

Again, we'll we'll stated. I absolutely love the mims redboy dogs as as well. They are super nice and have plenty of back end staying power

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, I can remember going back and looking through a lot of the old SDJs at one time to find out what happened to the Jocko dogs, persay. What I found, through only the magazine and my deducation, is that the Jocko dogs WERE winning. BUT, they were also quitting a lot after winning 1 or 2. I think the only reason there are still any Jocko dogs around, in any form, is simply due to Yellow John being influxed into those dogs. There were heavy bred Yellow John dogs kicking around for years, but you never really saw many heavy Jocko dogs, certainly not anything like you would see the YJ dogs. I think the only heavy Jocko bred dog that had success in production, along with performance, was Ch.Termite. His son, Gabriel, did a good job production wise also, but I don't know how many times he was bred, so maybe the production bit goes down a lot depending on that aspect.

The Little John dog I was so fond of was a little heavier Jocko than Yellow John, but he was also the only Redboy/Jocko dog I've seen that I saw enough offspring from to be impressed with. The Yellow dogs I saw from Tant were never impressive to me. I never saw any heavy Redboy dogs from Mims, but I did see a yard of dogs from him that were those crosses of which you speak. There was one dog from that entire group of dogs that had that kind of honesty, and even that dog was a psycho, man-eating SOB.

It's too bad we couldn't take the best, or gamest, dogs from those particular strains, combine, go through, and keep strolling into the future.

[EWO]

I have had my share of crazy ass Mims dogs as well. Most just get geeked up and it is hard for them to come back down. I have one now that I think left unattended, or without daily attention he would eventually be a biter. It is like he is sitting on the fence. Never had one that actually bit me but I can see where the lack of handling coupled with that bat shit craziness a dog could get on that side of the fence.

Agree on the RBJ dogs. The Termite dog I agree with, and your deduction about how they turned out, well, I can see the point as well. I have not had a ton of experience with the RBJ dogs myself. I saw a Burns Hotdog/Tomjack dog quit, and a couple from Tant's Tripple AAA not make it either. From Triple AAA there was a good dog named Jam who produced a couple of good ones around these parts. The best one I saw was from Waccamaw, he went 2:50 I think, and the last :50 was as impressive as anything I have seen. He took a beating and was willing to go when the other was not. Looked good. I would not judge the whole family on what little I have seen.

Good posts. Bog redboy fan myself. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

I made a visit out that way some years ago and saw Jam, and a few dogs off him. Also saw some dogs off Shredder. Unfortunately, the dogs off Jam were still rather young, and while the Shredder dogs were ok, they weren't exactly my cup of tea. I know Shredder produced some winners when bred to Dirty White Boy I believe. That has been so long ago though. Always interesting when the world gets a little smaller when conversations merge together.

And I, like you, don't want to degrade an entire family on a few dogs. I know there were good Yellow dogs out there. I was just never really fortunate enough to see any that I really thought were something I'd want to feed or breed around.

[AmericanDogMan]

Not to belabor the point. But I found a good read from Mr. Carl Mims himself where he calls out the Bolio/Tombstone the number one producing line. Circa 1986

Good read below

He states name's like:

Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.). A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.
-----

The dog' he mention's are name's behind

Hollingsworth bull
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=181

and

Hollingsworth Dolly
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=171

and Gr Ch Machobuck DOY 2004
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=327

And

And Gr Ch Awesome Beast Doy 2003
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=4545

And the best of the Boyle's line

And further to the point these dogs were the secret sauce in
DOY 2002 Latin Force Barracuda
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=372
With him being a heavy Yellow dog ... Matter fact most of the Redboy found in the above mentioned specimens were Yellow dog's

I am a great fan of Mims' Redboy dogs and the stuff from K. Marlowe coming thru Judge's Buck

But I must admit my favorite as well is Tombstone/Bolio and their winning Gr Ch/ Ch children.

Below is the full article
----

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986
Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world.
Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses.
It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal.
One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him.
I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some.
If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake.
If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes.
I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith".

The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM),
Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM), "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and
Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't.
A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/ "Indian Bolio" (ROM). Some of the top producers of this line are: Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr." (produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) Crossed over into Ch. "Jocko" blood has produced some great ones like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM) This is a line that has been bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh. "Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) This line is known for it's gameness. If all of "Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's "Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter "Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California. His brother sired 2 Champions before his death. "Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the Journal, and has been bred quite a bit. This line is great breeding stock.
These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.
TIP!! An example of a line that people are taking a chance on is GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died. GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.

[FrostyPaws]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.