SHAVING bulldog in keep. (Only reply if you've exp or have knowledge in it.)

[gotap_d]

Gotap_d I respectfully disagree with you, but to each his own, no harm no foul on my end. However, riddle me this. If a conditioner takes the time to put a hound on a scale twice a day, weighing his feed, and regulating his water, for 8-10 weeks, why would you change anything at the last minute? That makes zero since to me.

I have two full grown Akitas (90 and 110 lbs) and I could guess what 5 oz of hair looks like, and I don’t see that coming off of 40 lb bulldog.

REALLY! If you think that 5 oz of hair is going to be difference maker in a hound’s performance, more power to you. If I bring ANYTHING and 5 oz stands between me and a win, I would seriously have to reconsider my position on a whole lot of things.

I have won more than once with what I thought was an inferior hound, not because I shaved him down to his nuts chasing 5 oz. I don’t care what “lane” you are in it boils down to conditioning. Bringing the bigger dog is as much science as it is an art when it comes to conditioning, and then their still is not guarantee that you are fielding the bigger hound.

Assume for a minute that you have two equally matched opponents in all areas; the athlete in superior condition will win the majority of the time.

It's all good Moses. If a conditioner has been weighing his dog twice a day, weighing feed and regulating water for 8-10 weeks then shaving his dog towards the end of the keep will have no affect on him because he has been dealing with weight fluctuations for the last 8-10 weeks and adjusting accordingly. If the work picks up in your keep and the sogs suddenly drops weight at a time you dont want him to you will increase feed/fluid accordingly. Same with the weight loss that will occur after the shave. The answer to the riddle though is to seek an advantage.

Because of akitas having a double coat and being a larger breed of dog than the ones i have shaved i'm just guessing here also but i'll say you can get at least 1/2lb of hair off one that weighs 90lbs. The 5oz is being thrown around a lot but i just used it as an example. I know that you wont get the same weight with every dog. You can shave your 90lb akita and someone elses 90lb akita and not get the same weight loss of hair. The very last dog i shaved was a 40m the difference with him with fur and shaved was 3oz. The dog i shaved before him was a 52m and the weight difference with him was exactly 3oz. I have shave 35f and taken 5oz off. So again every dog will be different.

If you are bringing your dog to face another mans dog NO sir i dont believe that 5oz is a difference maker or deal breaker. It is an advantage though.

I believe that conditioning plays a HUGE role in winning or losing and have never ever considered a win to be because of shaving a dog. Its a sport where too many variables can have an effect on the outcome. Did i win this time because i fed supplement x and not z? Did my dog run hot because his blood count was this and not that? Did my dog begin to fade at the end because he was just a little too dry? I believe its just too many variable to pinpoint 1 thing as the cause for winning and losing.

You mentioned bringing the bigger hound is that because you consider bringing a bigger framed dog at the same weight as the smaller framed dog to be an advantage? If you do think that it along the line of what i think on shaving. If you cut you dogs feed back to 1-1/2 cups the last week to make 37lbs but after i shave i can keep feeding 2cups i believe my dog should have more fuel to burn. My dog has less of a chance of oing into a catabolic state than yours.

I totally agree with your senario. If you have 2 evenly matched opponents then the one with superior conditioning will win the majority of the time.

[gotap_d]

You don't have the ability to say the same thing twice and keep your thoughts consistent.

You first said you thought a 5 oz advantage was a 100% guarantee of success.

Now you're saying it's "an advantage"

Well, no shit, I already agreed it was an advantage ... a 5 oz advantage





You're, not your.

Just because some dogmen run over 5 oz doesn't mean anything.

Other dogmen push weight and win.

I agree weight matters, when it's significant; we just disagree that 5 oz is "significant."

You also have yet to prove that shaved dog hair = 5 oz, which I doubt very much, so I think "shaving hair" is even less significant.





In addition to having trouble with concepts, you also have trouble with proportions and math.

15 lb = 48x greater than 5 oz

(1lb = 16 oz x 15 = 240 oz)

240/5 = 48

The average pit dog is 40 lb.
The average human fighter around 160.

This means the average person is 4x the size of the average dog (not 48x the size).
This means you are exaggerating to make a point, so let's bring you back down to reality.

If the average man is 4x the size of the average dog, then you multiply 5 oz x 4 which would = 20 oz (1.25 lb).

This means your big 5 oz "advantage" in a 40 lb bulldog is equal to a 1.25 lb (20 oz) advantage in a middleweight (160 lb) human, which again isn't shit.





Even the same two people would be different. You are different now from what you were yesterday.

If you played a computer game twice, you would make different choices and get different scores.

As with your lack of understanding of everything else, you're not understanding this concept.

People are not robots who do the same things every time; they are different every single day.





Well, it is a good topic, but when you actually THINK about it, and use facts, 1) no one has yet to prove what dog hair weighs, and even if it weighs 5 ounces, which I very much doubt, it still doesn't do shit.

I do agree that weight is significant, when the amount of weight is significant.
But 5 oz isn't shit to a dog (and I still don't think dog hair even weighs 5 oz).

The best middleweight human fighters are not going to win/lose over a 1.25 lb difference in weight, and the best 40 lb dogs are not going to win/lose over 5 oz either.

Other factors will make the difference.

Jack

Thanks Jack you managed to drag me back in this because of my typo. What the hell does my typo need to be addressed for? If you were going to address my statements in my last post thats all you had to do.

Thanks again for telling me what i first said. But youre WRONG! The first thing i said about the issue of weight difference was post #9. And i said it was a benifit not anything about a 100% guarantee of victory.

I dont need to prove that shaved dog hair weighs 5oz to you. Firstly it was an example in which i threw out a weight. I know all dogs hair weight is different. Since the issue of hair weight is your main concern and not the concept why dont you shave ten 40lb bulldogs from the base of the head down and see if you can get 1oz or less. I can tell you it wont happen. I've shaved enough dogs to know that what you will get will be around what i said in post #8 and that 3-5oz.

Once agin you're nit picking. Im not going to do calculations to to make sure my weight EXAMPLE for a dog is proportional to my weight EXAMPLE of you fighting your clone. I gave the examples and weren't meant to be proportional. You can feel free to come up with your own examples and use adequate proportions if you would like.

So you have complied a list of every fighter in the world and charted their weight and come up with 160 being the average??? My guess would be no(doesn't me pointing that out seem like im nit picking).

Yes pdople are different from day to day but since we are talking about human clones lets assume my EXAMPLE is in a fairy tale world. In this world if its a monday your clone experiences the exact same monday, makes the exact same decisions, feels the exact same way and has the exact same skill set and conditioning. If you two were to do combat with each other the one with the 15lb weight advantage would win.

What do you mean use facts??? I seem to be the ONLY person that posted on this thread, admitting to shaving a dog for the purpose of charting the resuction of weight and saying what those weights were. FACT. All you have been doing is "thinking" you cant get 5oz off a dog and "guessing" that the hair is less than 1oz. Once again it is pointless to prove how much dog hair weighs. It doesn't matter how much "dog hair" weighs as long as i know how much my current dog that i am bringing to the box lost when he is shaved and i can adjust the feed/fluid intake accordingly. I agree with you on one thing 5oz of hair is not significant just like its not significant if you take you bring your natural 40m otc and go into a 43lb dog that is a natural 37m. Yea you pushed 3lbs but it was against a dog that is naturally 3lbs smaller than your dog. Im not arguing shave your dog to have a 5oz(example #) weight advantage on the scale.

In the end, a relaxed, poised dog, in shape, and with good blood, will be long-winded with the hair God gave it.

Jack

PS: Can't think of a single all-time-great dog that needed to be matched, shaved

If you think wind is the only conditioning factor involved in going the long haul you're mistaken. There are people that get in deep water and never take a breath but still lose because of the keep because of things like muscle endurance. Their dogs legs will begin to wobble and you can watch the keep fall off right before your eyes. My stance on the main topic that i'm arguing has and will continue to be the same. If I can shave my dog, take 5oz of hair off and put 5oz more of fuel(feed/fluid) in him to maybe give him an advantage over the other dog in the long haul i will do it every single time. The hair sure isn't helping keep him on his feet in deep water. Will it make me win no but i'm going to help my dog succeed as much as possible.

PS: I cant either. I also cant think of any all-time great that needed to go through a full keep to beat some of thier opponents, or needed to be shot with steroids or travel several states over to train in the same altitude as their opponent but that didnt stop their conditioners from doing it and believing it was an advantage that would help their dog.

Thanks again Jack for the convo but I'm done regardless of you pointing out spelling/grammar errors or not.

[S_B]

I spoke with a fellow bulldogger who is a dog groomer and asked how much hair would weigh if a bulldog was shaved. She guessed 1/2 lb, I asked her if she ever had a reason to weigh hair and she said a pyrenees was shaved and they weighed out 10 pounds of hair.

She said she would shave one and document the weight with pictures, so I'll share that when it becomes available.


S_B

[Officially Retired]

Blah-blah-blah ...

I was not wrong about anything.

You said dog hair weighs 5 oz but have no evidence to support this.

I said I do not believe shaved bulldog hair would weigh even that.

Even if it did, I said 5 oz isn't shit and affects nothing.

In post #32 of this thread, you said, if two equals faced each other, the one with the 5 oz wight advantage would win "100% of the time," which is laughable.

With all things being equal except the weight i believe it does equal a 100% success rate.

Now, you're denying saying this, which not only makes you laughably-wrong, but a dishonest liar, even when your own words have been posted here for all to see.

You then attempted to compare a 5 oz weight advantage in dogs to a 15-lb weight advantage in humans (also on post #32 of this thread):

Jack if you were fighting your self with the same training and a 15lb weight advantage that it would be an even matchup?

I am not "nitpicking" for pointing out the fact your comparison is invalid ... the truth is your comparison WAS SO FAR OFF it simply demanded correction, as 15 lb is 48x more weight than 5 oz.

I correctly pointed out THE FACT that humans are, in general, only 4x bigger than dogs, and here is my PROOF:

The lowest weight male dog I know of being matched is 26 lb, which when multiplied x4 = 104 lb.
Coincidentally, the lowest human fight division is Mini Flyweight, which limit is 105 lb, exactly 4x greater.

The largest legit match dogs I know of being matched are 59-60 lb, pit weight, which when multiplied x4 = 240 lb.
Coincidentally, the HIGHEST you will EVER see truly competitive boxers fight at as Heavyweights will never exceed this amount either, which again is exactly 4x the weight of the largest, legit Catch Dogs.

Therefore, as stated, humans are about 4x the size of pit bulls, and this is true from the smallest to the biggest. I simply picked a 40 lb "middleweight" bulldog, and compared it to a 160 lb middleweight human fighter, but (as demonstrated) the truth of what I said obtains across the board, from the smallest to the lightest: the 4x ratio applies.

Therefore, you trying to compare a 5 oz advantage in a dog to a 15 lb advantage in a human fighter (a 48x greater disparity, not 4x), was SO FAR OFF that I had to correct the amazing stupidity/cluelessness of your opinion, and point out THE FACT that 5 oz in a 40 lb dog translates to 20 oz (1.25 lb) in a middleweight 160 lb human fighter (using the universally-true 4x standard).

Smaller bulldogs will have less hair, larger bulldogs will have more hair, but THE RATIO will remain the same

I merely tried to screw your head on correctly, but you are resistant to reality. I then showed you how ridiculous your argument is, using real numbers.

With the real numbers in place, and with a realistic sense of proportion used (1.25 lb), if you are still trying to suggest that a 160 lb middleweight has "an advantage" over a 158.75 lb middleweight, then yes, I am calling you an idiot. It is a negligible, nothing weight disparity in the middleweight division ... and, when scaled-down 1/4 to 40 lb bulldogs, I am saying that a 5 oz weight advantage of a 40 lb dog over a 39.7 lb dog (the proportional equivalent), is likewise a negligible, nothing weight disparity as well.

You can "deny" this all you want, but denial isn't rebuttal, it is only denial

Everything you have said so far has been false, exaggerated, and has indicated a total misunderstanding of basically every single concept that is possible to talk about as it pertains to this subject. I am trying to keep things REAL, with real numbers, accurate proportions, and sound concepts ... while you invent pure, fabricated bullshit out of thin air, grossly exaggerate, and then deny the silliness of the things you've said previously.

At the end of the day, what *I* have said is the truth:

A 160 lb middleweight has no appreciable advantage over a 158.75-lb middleweight, and no sane fight analyst/trainer would think so either.
And likewise, a 40 lb bulldog has no appreciable advantage over a 39.7 lb bulldog, and no sane dogman would think so either.

As I have said repeatedly (as well as some of the others), Other Factors are going to be the determining causes of who wins/loses, not the negligible weight difference

Again, you can "deny" this if you want, but denial isn't rebuttal, it is only denial.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I spoke with a fellow bulldogger who is a dog groomer and asked how much hair would weigh if a bulldog was shaved. She guessed 1/2 lb, I asked her if she ever had a reason to weigh hair and she said a pyrenees was shaved and they weighed out 10 pounds of hair.

No disrespect, but this also shows a lack of understanding of absolutely everything also.

For starters, Great Pyrenees are NOT fighting dogs, and secondly they have an assload of hair compared to bulldogs.

And finally, even if we go with this exaggeration and use the 4x standard, it still doesn't mean shit.

The weight range of the Great Pyrenees breed spans 85 to 160 lb.
If we use the 4x standard, that would be equivalent to comparing massive human sumo wrestlers, ranging between 340 lb to 640 lb (which is 4x 85 and 160 lb, respectively).
At this proportionally-enormous size, 40 lb still doesn't mean shit.

Are you trying to keep a straight face and say a 500 lb guy has an "advantage" over a 460 lb guy?

And, again, this ratio involves the hair-shavings of a breed which has hair MUCH longer & thicker than that of the pit bull breed.
(If we were using an 85-160 lb pit bull, the difference would be maybe 1-2 lb of hair, which would translate to a 4-8 lb difference in a 340-640 lb massive sumo wrestler.)

So not only is the comparison invalid, 10 lb of hair from a massive Great Pyrenees is at least double/triple what pit bull hair would yield from that big of a bulldog. So, again, when we perform these reality checks, at the end of the day, when the PROVEN proportions are used, it still doesn't mean shit.

She said she would shave one and document the weight with pictures, so I'll share that when it becomes available.
S_B

Well, her documentation of "bulldog hair" should also mention the weight of the dog being shaved.

It will be interesting, anecdotally, but I guarantee the results will still spell NEGLIGIBLE when all is said and done.

Jack

[MOSES]

It's all good Moses. If a conditioner has been weighing his dog twice a day, weighing feed and regulating water for 8-10 weeks then shaving his dog towards the end of the keep will have no affect on him because he has been dealing with weight fluctuations for the last 8-10 weeks and adjusting accordingly. If the work picks up in your keep and the sogs suddenly drops weight at a time you dont want him to you will increase feed/fluid accordingly. Same with the weight loss that will occur after the shave. The answer to the riddle though is to seek an advantage.

Because of akitas having a double coat and being a larger breed of dog than the ones i have shaved i'm just guessing here also but i'll say you can get at least 1/2lb of hair off one that weighs 90lbs. The 5oz is being thrown around a lot but i just used it as an example. I know that you wont get the same weight with every dog. You can shave your 90lb akita and someone elses 90lb akita and not get the same weight loss of hair. The very last dog i shaved was a 40m the difference with him with fur and shaved was 3oz. The dog i shaved before him was a 52m and the weight difference with him was exactly 3oz. I have shave 35f and taken 5oz off. So again every dog will be different.

If you are bringing your dog to face another mans dog NO sir i dont believe that 5oz is a difference maker or deal breaker. It is an advantage though.

I believe that conditioning plays a HUGE role in winning or losing and have never ever considered a win to be because of shaving a dog. Its a sport where too many variables can have an effect on the outcome. Did i win this time because i fed supplement x and not z? Did my dog run hot because his blood count was this and not that? Did my dog begin to fade at the end because he was just a little too dry? I believe its just too many variable to pinpoint 1 thing as the cause for winning and losing.

You mentioned bringing the bigger hound is that because you consider bringing a bigger framed dog at the same weight as the smaller framed dog to be an advantage? If you do think that it along the line of what i think on shaving. If you cut you dogs feed back to 1-1/2 cups the last week to make 37lbs but after i shave i can keep feeding 2cups i believe my dog should have more fuel to burn. My dog has less of a chance of oing into a catabolic state than yours.

I totally agree with your senario. If you have 2 evenly matched opponents then the one with superior conditioning will win the majority of the time.

I aint made at all, in fact I pulled groomed the bitch today and rammed as much coat as I could into a quart zip lock bag (81.2 grams = 2.86 ounces).
Now, yes the coat types are not the same, but now we are really splitting hairs. But, my curiosity was peeked, not as an attempt to discredit what has been said.
True story, I can fill trash cans full of hair at the drop of a dime. That 2.86 ounces came off a well-groomed dog and that was only what fit in the bag.

Na, if shaving them works for you, that SOB would be stark naked!

I ran competitively from the ages of 8 to 30. I have competed in the Junior Olympics, countless Regional and State meets, Pen Relays, and the Mobile 1 Invitational as a D1 athlete at a major university. I have been poked prodded and probed by the best. In the late 80’s early 90’s we used to shave our legs, weight our spikes and the whole nine looking for whatever edge we could find. Hell, I watched Mike Johnson put a 3 second gap on me indoors in the mid 90’s at 500m. I have been running the Marine core and SunTrust marathons for the past 6 years now, and I am still logging 5k every morning. I say this not to layout my life, but establish a baseline for my understanding of conditioning.

Variables are minimized in individual sports such as running. If the focus is running, I know what everything is that I consumed during conditioning and refine or reinforce those things in training. I know how each of these things makes me feel and so on. A lot of people let a dog sit on a chain and then expect him to just get into shape, because they are ready to kinda get of their asses for 8-10 weeks. A canine athlete should always be in shape, and ready to receive conditioning to support the training to follow! This is a commitment to a life style for owner and dog. I give them the same supplements that I take myself; yes I can tell you EXACTLY where I fall short in my conditioning. Now the other environmental factors are a whole different ball of wax. Last year my longest training run was only 15 miles, but I ran my fastest 26.2 at 40 years old. I am nolonger able to run 400m in under 60 seconds becasue the type of conditioning has changed to support the training for longer distances.

Bringing the bigger dog isn’t as easy as it sounds in my experience. Some dogs are built like sprinters and others like distance runners, what I have found are you are looking for something slam in the middle that 400m to 500m type build (take a look at any of them). Mass does not equate to strength, what I look for is a lean, well-toned dog. Height and structure are the equivalent to reach or stride length. When I say the bigger dog, I am talking about a 38 lb dog that looks like he is 40 lbs. What good is strength if you can’t use it, what good is speed if you can’t get away, it’s a chess match with very high stakes.

I guess the concept is the same in that you are looking for an advantage, but that is where it stops IMHO. Anyone who has ever seen my dogs will tell you I am bringing a Grey Hound, because I focus on the development of lean muscle and air. No two dogs are the same; you’ll never effectively turn a distance runner into a sprinter and or Vis versa. The first time your hound runs hot should NOT be in the box, we deal with this as a part of our conditioning not our training.

[S_B]

Jack thanks for clearing that up about the Great Pyrenees, that could have been messy...
Just having fun, I used the breed to illustrate a significant weight of hair being shaved off a dog. I was shocked at the amount honestly. But I'm sure dirt and mats figured into that as well.

This has been an interesting topic to say the least. I for one don't care if you nip, tuck, shave or dye your charge to gain an advantage it makes things interesting and gives us something to discuss here.

S_B

[FrostyPaws]

That is incorrect thinking. Shaving a dog for weight purposes only needs to be done once and it will be near the end of the keep.

There are two reasons someone would shave a dog for weight purposes. The 1st is the day of the race they see that they wont make weight and start shaving their dog to get off whatever they can. The 2nd way is what i do and it is for an advantage. For example lets say im bringing in a 40lb male and he is sitting at 41-1/2 a week out. I already know how much feed and water to gelive the rest of the keep and come show night i will be 40lbs on the nose. I'll empty my dog out and weigh him he weighs 41-1/2 then i shave him and he weighs 41.3 i removed 5oz of hair. If i continue with the current feed plan i will fall under weight on show night so the food and water intake is adjusted accordingly. Show night comes and i still fall dead on 40lbs but i was able to give my dog more food/fluids than i would have been able to had he not been shaved. It may not seem like a big deal but it is an advantage. If you bring Gr Ch Buck and hook into my Gr Ch Buck with identical keeps but my Buck weighs 5oz bigger I would win.

Weight does not equal size. That is a common mistake that MANY people make. I've seen so many dogs BIGGER at a weight, yet both dogs weigh the same. Weight is weight. It doesn't equate to a bigger dog. It means a heavier dog.

[Nut]

shaving for weight purposes unless opponent is whining about 20 gram overweight is plane ridiculous imo

[MOSES]

Takem to church FrostyPaws! I tried to explain it the best I could. Like I said, it's not as easy as one would think. Bottom line, you have to put hands on a lot of dogs and go through a few pairs of running shoes.