pedigrees

[EWO]

That is very accurate.

I'm his biggest fan as a business man. It is a model any young business person should follow. Forget the product as any product could be plugged in, but it is the model.

I met him once as a young kid. Again at a show some years back. And then at his pig picking year before last. I went to meet CYJ in person. If it were not to meet CYJ I would have been doing something other than baking outside in that wicked heat that day.

He sold two puppies that day. I saw a guy walk from behind the fence with two puppies and we were both headed to the parking area down by the road. I have no idea what he gave or what they were bred from. No idea. I am guessing based on advertisements they were in the $1500 range. (But like great business, it could have been these are the last two left and I need the brood pen so it could have been a two-fer deal) Regardless they bought two puppies and two gallons of water. We get to where the cars are parked. The guy has SC tags so it was good little drive. They put the dogs in the front seat. They lifted the hood. They did not check the oil. They just added a quart so I know they knew they had oil issues. They opened the radiator cap and added just about a gallon of water. One guy walks back up the path and refills the gallon jug and off they went.

I have driven some junk in my day and I an not knocking on that in the least. More than likely I have set out to go further driving worse. But never did I spend well over a thousand dollars on puppies when I was so close to walking back and forth to work.

So forget the dogs. Think about the business and the marketing he has accomplished. Pure genius.

When you plug in dogs the term peddler may apply. Look at the Olsteen fellow in Texas. He sells what people are willing to buy. From the outside in he is a crook but he fills the building every Sunday. Cars. Real estate. Horses. The actual product does not factor.

EWO

The man makes some damn good points!

[IWK]

A lot of people in the dogs hate folks like Tom because they're "peddlers". I couldn't disagree more. I think that, just like any other sport or industry, using the market to drive competition and improvements in these dogs is the best tool we have. Yes, some will have unscrupulous business practices, but in long run, the competitive forces of the market will drive better breeding practices, better health care for the dogs, and ultimately better dogs. Garner puts out a very large number of puppies each year, and maybe his percentages are great or maybe they're not, but if he continues to get good, tested dogs back from his customers for future breeding, they will definitely get better. Meanwhile, he protects his investment in the dogs by making some the greatest whelping and puppy pens out there just to ensure he loses as few pups as possible. It's good for him, and it's good for the puppies. Making these dogs a business is the best thing that could happen to them.

[S_B]

A lot of people in the dogs hate folks like Tom because they're "peddlers". I couldn't disagree more. I think that, just like any other sport or industry, using the market to drive competition and improvements in these dogs is the best tool we have. Yes, some will have unscrupulous business practices, but in long run, the competitive forces of the market will drive better breeding practices, better health care for the dogs, and ultimately better dogs. Garner puts out a very large number of puppies each year, and maybe his percentages are great or maybe they're not, but if he continues to get good, tested dogs back from his customers for future breeding, they will definitely get better. Meanwhile, he protects his investment in the dogs by making some the greatest whelping and puppy pens out there just to ensure he loses as few pups as possible. It's good for him, and it's good for the puppies. Making these dogs a business is the best thing that could happen to them.

I whole heartedly and very STRONGLY disagree. Making these dogs a business is the furthest thing from making them good you can possibly get. A business is about money over quality more often than not.

Take a look at other "working" breeds that have become a business. The German Shepherd, English Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Doberman....etc etc etc. Those dogs are a shell of their former selves, not to mention all of the accepted defects.

As far as your comment on how his customers are bringing him back good tested stock....this is another glaringly obvious reason it is not good to make the APBT a public business.

S_B

[IWK]

Other breeds have been destroyed because the customers demanded a product that had nothing to do with work. They wanted pets, not working dogs. To the extent that there is still a market for working dogs, there are some really great lines of German Shepherds and Malinois that sell for lots of money because the market demands it. The business incentivizes that breeders of those working dogs produce the best quality they can because they compete with each other to gain customers like police and military. Yes, GSDs have non-working kennels that breed crap. So do pit bulls. They cater to a different customer. But as long as there is a demand for working bulldogs, there will be breeders that attempt to supply them. It's a good thing.

Business has only helped Thoroughbreds. It's helped basketball players improve. It's helped every sport and type of athlete to up their game, figure out better fitness programs and better training programs to improve the final product: performance. It can do the same for bulldogs.

[CYJ]

Ditto, I can see both valid points of the argument of selling or not selling these dogs. It was said that Colby was one of the first dog man of his era that sold Pit dogs to the public. Many of the old timers frowned upon it. When the Bloodlines Journal first came out. You saw notable pit bull breeders selling or studding out dogs.

Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner did farm out some of their dogs time to time. But frowned upon selling them out right to the general public. They would have had no dealings with me. Had not my Father owned pit dogs and was active back then. My Father and Uncle knew Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner on a personnel bases. Mr. Teal's uncle was married to one of my great aunts. Anyone got into the dogs back then, you had to have some good references.

Mr.Teal and Mr. Skinner often called Loposay and Pete Sparks dog peddlers since they ran kennels and sold dogs to the general public. Yet they were never disrespectable to either as persons. Mr. Teal gave some advice many years back that helped keep me out of John Q public's eye for a lot of years.

He said these dogs should be bred and used for what they were bred for period. That these dogs were not bred to be Pets even though as a whole these dogs are very man friendly. Even Mr. Colby lost one of his grand children that was killed by one of his dogs.

Some other bits of advice from Mr. Teal. Was not to have compulsive gamblers hanging around you and your dogs. Are any thrill seekers looking for some new thing they have never seen. Lastly a hen pecked man or a man that is abusive to his wife or family.

The gambler can easily do something to your dog and bet against you. The thrill seeker will go back and blab what was seen to who ever will listen , including the law. The hen pecked man more likely will have his wife calling the law on you and him while at some event. The Abusive man is just another type of thug and best to stay away from sorts like that.

For what it is worth, I feel the better stock of dogs will be found on a small dog yard. Were the stock is checked along the way before any future breeding's are made. I have had close to one hundred dogs counting puppies. I thought at the time it would speed up my breeding program and help me know which direction I should go. In the end it was a waste of time by having too many bloodlines with a lot more money being spent.

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to peace and quite. Cheers

[S_B]

Ditto, I can see both valid points of the argument of selling or not selling these dogs. It was said that Colby was one of the first dog man of his era that sold Pit dogs to the public. Many of the old timers frowned upon it. When the Bloodlines Journal first came out. You saw notable pit bull breeders selling or studding out dogs.

Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner did farm out some of their dogs time to time. But frowned upon selling them out right to the general public. They would have had no dealings with me. Had not my Father owned pit dogs and was active back then. My Father and Uncle knew Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner on a personnel bases. Mr. Teal's uncle was married to one of my great aunts. Anyone got into the dogs back then, you had to have some good references.

Good references used to be the key to the good dogs, now a fast dollar and a few Facebook friends gets you access to most.

Mr.Teal and Mr. Skinner often called Loposay and Pete Sparks dog peddlers since they ran kennels and sold dogs to the general public. Yet they were never disrespectable to either as persons. Mr. Teal gave some advice many years back that helped keep me out of John Q public's eye for a lot of years.

He said these dogs should be bred and used for what they were bred for period. That these dogs were not bred to be Pets even though as a whole these dogs are very man friendly. Even Mr. Colby lost one of his grand children that was killed by one of his dogs.

Precisely why these dogs are not for everyone, and explained beautify below by you I might add...

Some other bits of advice from Mr. Teal. Was not to have compulsive gamblers hanging around you and your dogs. Are any thrill seekers looking for some new thing they have never seen. Lastly a hen pecked man or a man that is abusive to his wife or family.

The gambler can easily do something to your dog and bet against you. The thrill seeker will go back and blab what was seen to who ever will listen , including the law. The hen pecked man more likely will have his wife calling the law on you and him while at some event. The Abusive man is just another type of thug and best to stay away from sorts like that.

Bravo!!!!!

Mr. Teal sounds like my kind of people! He's 100% correct in my book. I look for the bad traits in my people just like my dogs. It is best to cull the ones you know will haunt you later if you don't. We're only human though...it has to be a constant and consistent effort.

For what it is worth, I feel the better stock of dogs will be found on a small dog yard. Were the stock is checked along the way before any future breeding's are made. I have had close to one hundred dogs counting puppies. I thought at the time it would speed up my breeding program and help me know which direction I should go. In the end it was a waste of time by having too many bloodlines with a lot more money being spent.

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to piece and quite. Cheers

Agreed again! CYJ, you never disappoint it is refreshing to read what you write here. I know you've often thought of leaving, but I'm so glad your heart keeps you here.

These dogs will eventually be gone, that is my belief. And it will be partly do to the fact that anyone can own them. I don't say that lightly being someone who strongly opposes my right to do as I please infringed upon in today's society.

What I feel is best is for those who do make the decision to own and work these dogs is take the same care in selling them. Be as selective where your dogs as as you are with your dogs.

S_B

[DuckDong82]

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to piece and quite. Cheers

[IWK]

Good stuff CYJ!

S_B, I definitely agree that breeders should be selective regarding who they place puppies with. However, that does not mean that they shouldn't sell the puppy to the selected buyer. A breeder can be both wise and selective and sell his puppies. I realize that not everyone will be wise and selective... but it can be done.

We all know good breeders who refuse to sell a pup. They'll give a few away, but they won't accept money in exchange. This seems silly to me. I think it's great that they're kind enough to give away valuable animals to the right people, but in the long run, I think it hurts they're own program. Unless they have some large source of money from elsewhere, giving away puppies means they have less to spend on improving their own yard. For example, some of these breeders feed low quality kibble because they can't afford higher quality or raw. If they'd sell those pups to good people instead of giving them away to good people, they might be able to feed higher quality.

[EWO]

As with all topics both sides have good points.

I'm not a fan of the mass selling of the dogs. There is no way to sell hundreds of puppies and still be selective. Simply can't be done. Another conversation with Jack on this topic. I never doubted the quality of the dogs, but I doubted the percentages, because it is just about impossible to find that many people that will do right by the dogs.
Placing 23 litters with people that will do right by the dogs is a real stretch.

At the same time I do not take it upon myself to judge those that do sell a lot of puppies.

If I were into selling things and every time I increased the price I continued to sell out I would in turn increase the price again. I would do so until the market told me I had over reached and then I would adjust with some killer two-fer deals.

Money plays a part in these dogs just like anything else. As soon as we talk about the price of puppies that will lead to talk about high dollar matches equating and not equating to high quality dogs.

As far as comparing the bulldogs to other breeds. There a lot of similarities. The biggest difference is stud dogs. Other breeds do not offer up there proven, high quality stud dogs as often as they do in bulldogs. In those groups when they have something that is working the only way to get it is by way of purchasing puppies. Even the top notch kennels committed to world class working dogs do not offer up their best dogs to stud to the general public, or even in private. The best chance is buying a female that works and taking it back. Some do offer them up but not near as much as in bulldogs.

The show breeds even less often.

EWO