Good point. Stacking some dogs away even as pets is a good idea
The guy who coldly goes through em and only wants the best?
The guy who really tries to bring out the best in each dog?
Good point. Stacking some dogs away even as pets is a good idea
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Sometimes people with small yards shoot themselves in the foot by culling so ruthlessly.
It is almost like they get brainwashed into the genre of "kill anything that can't be shown," which is ultimately a flawed way to do things.
Suppose some "hard culler" does that, and their great Champion they kept dies DG for his 5th ... or gets put down in a raid ... or gets stolen, etc. ... and they killed off all the other siblings? What then? Start all over with new blood?
By contrast, if that dogman had placed the game bum with a friend or family member (or sold it to a beginner), he would still have access to his good blood ... while if he killed off the others he would have none of it.
People who "assume" what they keep will "always be there" often regret their foolishness and find themselves in a bad spot ... while those who place stores of their blood in other locations can always fall back on 2 important things: (1) they can still have access to their blood if they lose the better brother, and/or (2) they can still have access to their blood if they find the game bum is the better producer
In a nutshell, "Waste Not, Want Not," as the saying goes ...
Jack
lol If you make a habit.of breeding hounds.like awesome baby your.program will follow her and what's behind her. she has had a ton of ones like her and some that.take her lineage. so jack what endearing qualities and or traits that she herself.possessed would make her a candidate.to breed knowing she has.shown you absolutely.nothing in terms of quality traits?
You're right, s_b.
Are you talking to me? What dogs are you speaking of? And instead of posting to this thread, which has nothing to do with "entering dogs" you could have PM'd me.
Good sir, before you "lol" at my post, you should at least take the time to answer my questions ... honestly ... because any laughter would quickly stop.
It is only through honest dialogue, and thorough responses, that the truth can be revealed
You're misquoting me. Again, in order for any dialogue to reach the truth, a person must 1) answer the reasonable questions asked and 2) respond & ask their own questions honestly
I never at any time said a person should "make a habit" of breeding cold bitches. I never said any person should "always breed to bums" either.
What I said was, I agree that a person should go through his dogs, I agree a person should select for the best ... but what I SAID was was a person should NOT kill game dogs with lesser ability ... but to sell/place the lesser ability/game dogs out as back-up. I simply don't believe in killing game dogs, provided they're of reasonable temperament and healthy. So it would be helpful to this discussion for you to take the time to answer my questions honestly yourself, and then to make HONEST references to what I *did* actually say, rather than to make dishonest spins that become something I did not say.
Now then, regarding Awesome Baby, "what's behind her" are some of the best dogs/producers of all time ... and she's also thrown dogs like this ... and more of them than any other single bitch in history, save Honeybunch, and from fewer breedings than any of them too.
That really ought to prove my point.
Again, you're asking me questions without first demonstrating the courtesy of answering mine.
Regarding your question, it pretty much demonstrates a total lack of understanding of genetics, on your part, and how they work. You seem to be operating under the (erroneous) belief that if a dog doesn't possess a trait, then that trait is "lost" ... which is absolutely false. Take any buckskin/blacknose dog with a rednose mama, for example. That buckskin dog may not "have" a rednose, but (genetically) it can still throw them. In fact, if you breed that buckskin dog to another rednose bitch, you will statistically get rednoses 75% of the time. That rednose gene isn't "lost"; it simply skipped that generation, and if you make the right breeding choices you can reliably and consistently get rednoses out of that buckskin dog, in every breeding you make with him, even though he himself doesn't possess the trait.
Now then, if we take this same basic principle onto "ability and gameness," when you have a bitch like Awesome Baby who (though cold) still has some of the greatest performance dogs/producers in the history of the game right behind her ... and if you breed her to other good dogs/crosses down from her same family ... statistically you stand an AWESOME chance of still getting some absolutely great animals ... and her production record proves this.
So your question basically shows you have no understanding of genetics, how many traits/abilities are recessive in nature, and how ANY desired traits CAN be brought back out in the next generation through proper selection and creative breeding choices designed to bring the greatness back out.
Asking me "would I want a yard full of cold bitches" may be a wise-guy way to confuse the issue, because NO, the goal isn't to get a bunch of cold dogs. The issue is NOT throwing away the baby with the bathwater ... but, instead, to be as selective as you can, breeding to the best you have access to, while keeping other, lesser game dogs around "just in case."
Case in point would be Ricky Jones and James Crenshaw. Ricky Jones bred more Champions, Grand Champions, etc. from Crenshaw's culls than what Crenshaw built with what he kept.
Earlier on this thread, EWO had an associate who whipped his ass with dogs EWO likewise culled.
The moral is, just because you "cull hard" and THINK you're making the best selections doesn't necessarily mean you are
Just because you "got rid of" something doesn't mean that the animal has no value ... nor does it mean someone ELSE couldn't build a better monument with your discards than what you can build with what you keep
And, finally, if you yourself lose what you kept, it is always smarter to have its game relative to fall back on ... or even a cold relative ... than it is to start all over again (if you really like what you're feeding).
"Hard culling" is NOT the mark of greatness in a dogman or breeder, BUILDING GREAT DOGS IS
And the simple fact is (was and always will be) that great dogs do NOT always "come from" great dogs ... sometimes the greatest dogs of all time come from inbred bums ... or cold dogs ... which mark a "skipped generation" (just like a skipped rednose) ... but where the World Class Ability comes right back in the successive generation through a knowledgeable, creative breeding decision.
In short, I will always respect a guy like Stone City, who HAS built a monument of greatness out of a cold bitch, FAR more than I will respect a dogman who says he "culls hard" ... and who brags about "ruthless standards" ... but yet who really has never produced any authentically great dogs out of what he's kept.
This is not a slam on any individual here, it is just the absolute truth as far as "proof" and "pudding" go
Jack
We have bred, raised and campaigned several winners. Several winners, who beat top quality dog men. We beat the absolute best in our area, we've beat some great ones out of our area. We can't put those names out in this forum, because last time we tried to share information, we received messages BASHING us for doing so. We will say this, our dogs are 5-0 this year. We have 2 Champions in China right now and a gyp, they say has the hardest mouth ever. (To each his own on that though). Our Deadlift/Bolio cross is 19-0 since we did the cross in the early-mid 2000's. Now, don't get us wrong.. We have lost some shows over the last decade and a half, but most dog men would kill for our record. Now, on to our Mayday stuff, our main stud dog has been bred 5 times with a total of 18 pups. Out of those 18 pups, 13 are of age and he has 7 POR points to his credit. That's a little bit about what our dogs have done.
Now, We weren't referring to YOUR dogs or YOU as a breeder Jack. We're speaking of Stone City Kennels. Awesome Baby did produce well, BUT - Was it her? Or was it the males she was bred to? Seriously, she only produced 4 winners in 3 breedings. And because she was a cold gyp, there's ALOT of dogs down from her TODAY that follow HER traits as an individual, COLD. Being that, that's the blood we run. Redboy/Jocko/Tombstone/Bolio. We have done the research, if you wind up the Awesome Baby dogs and/or the Buck dogs too tight, they throw ALOT of cold dogs. Period. You HAVE to use that stock as an outcross only or the percentages drop tremendously.
We understand genetics perfectly, it's something we study. One of our friends, KAG, knows more about genetics that anyone we have EVER met in these dogs. He taught us ALOT. So, we understand about traits skipping generations.
Now, to answer some more of your questions.. We're not telling ANYONE what they should do with THEIR dogs. To each their own. We just know what we do with our dogs. Now, we weren't saying if the dog COULD NO LONGER work, it had to be culled. That was taken out of context. What we meant was, if the dog is cold to begin with, why keep it around? We only keep performance dogs, so if the bitch wasn't performing, then she would have to go. We wouldn't keep a dog, solely based on pedigree. There are far too many QUALITY, PERFORMANCE dogs that are well bred. You know? So, why hope those quality genetic traits the cold gyp comes from pass through her into her offspring? Now, if traits can skip a generation, then it would be completely feasible to think her offspring would be able to throw COLD dogs, right? That's not something we're willing to risk.
If the dogs aren't good enough (in our eyes) then why take out just "pretty good" dogs? We believe you should only bring out the best your can breed/acquire, otherwise like EWO said, you're not betting on the dog at that point, but yourself. Yes, we have beaten titled dogs, we've beat alot of really good dogs that were off ALOT of great dogs from really good dog men. When people like TCF are contacting us, to buy our stock, that says something about the quality of our stock, right? So, yes, we have "World Beaters" over here.
And we do understand what you're saying Jack, but we don't keep dogs for breeding purposes ONLY, our yard is NOT a Brood yard. We are NOT breeders. It's a performance yard, meaning if they aren't performing, then they don't make the cut. We don't have the luxury of having acres and acres of space to house 20+ dogs. So, we don't keep dogs "just in-case". It's like college football; did you think they put players on the Heisman list, just because they "TRIED REALLY HARD", but didn't have the ability to put up the statistics needed? Not at all. Do you think TOP Athletic Programs are giving FULL RIDE SCHOLARSHIPS to the average High School football player? No.
Not necessarily trying to argue, just the way we have done things from the time we started in these dogs. Just never understood the need/want to breed a cold dog with a good pedigree, when there are plenty of working dogs, that have good pedigrees.
Cheers,
ToTheDogs
Great response ... I knew you had it in you
Give me till later to crack my knuckles and respond, but kudos for the thoughtful effort here
No problem. I'll be waiting!Sorry, about the grammar in my previous posts, I was on my phone.. lol.
I understand about not wanting to put out names, but the flipside to that is (without them) there is no claim of "beating the best."
I can believe you with the 19-0 record with "Bolio/Deadlift" dogs ... as that is similar to the 18-1 Record the Warlock/Ginger breeding had ... it just makes things a little more interesting and believable to have some names/pedigrees to look at.
I know you weren't referring to my dogs, as I have had less than 5 cold dogs in my life, but I was mainly referring to game bums.
My point is, Awesome Baby produced better than "well"; she was the best producing bitch in the history of dogs, save Honeybunch. From 3 breedings she produced Gr Ch Yellowbuck (6xW), Ch Nico (4xW, ROM), Ch Luger (4xW), Ch Miss Piggy (3xW), Dixie (2xW), etc. That is 19-1 also. Okay, so there may be some "cold dogs" in there too, but I can't help but notice the Champions and Grand Champions as well
This isn't Stone City claiming to have a 19-1 record, but giving no names, this is a verifiable record and list of winners. I don't see anything like this coming from hardly any other bitches, good peds or not, great ability or not. You seem to want to give credit to the studs Awesome Baby was bred to, but the fact is those studs were also bred to other bitches, yet didn't produce the same quality dogs as when bred to Awesome Baby. Something was clearly special about her, as an individual.
No one understands genetics perfectly, and I don't know who KAG is or what his record is as a breeder, but no one is perfect.
If you understood genetics perfectly, you wouldn't question the skipped generation or ask "why" breed to a dog that, itself, is less than perfect (provided it has truly excellent dogs up close in its ped). You would already know the answer why. You would also be aware that truly badass dogs sometimes can't produce well, and that many deeply-game, inbred dogs may not have match ability ... but can throw it better than most match dogs. This is indisputable.
I understand what you mean about cold dogs. I tried to keep and work with one, just to experiment, but (ultimately) I felt the same as you, that I was wasting my time, and it was very hard to want to go breed to "him" (even though I personally knew how game his parents were) ... when I could breed to some truly talented World Class dogs on my yard ... with parents that were just as good or better. Ironically, that "cold gene" also happened to come down from the most talented dog I ever had. No one can deny that many cold dogs (Loposay's Buster ROM, Sorrells' Bull ROM, Little Gator ROM, Awesome Baby ROM, Polly ROM, etc.) have produced some truly, game, truly great dogs.
I may not have pursued breeding to my own cold dog, but I do understand why (if the blood was there), someone would give it a shot, especially if they liked the results.
Anytime you breed dogs, you "risk" breeding a cold, cur, and/or no-talent dog. There is simply no way around this.
I absolutely agree that, through selection, you can minimize (or maximize) the "risk" of getting shitty dogs ... so it makes sense to minimize that risk by avoiding known pitfalls ... yet, ultimately, the "risk" is unavoidable no matter what you use. I absolutely agree that you should ALWAYS select the best performers you can use, as a rule; my point was in not killing the game littermates. We got thrown off track a bit with the cold Awesome Baby, but my main point of contention with you was saying you'd cull the game dogs with no ability. Killing game dogs is not cool (or too smart) IMO, even if they have better littermates.
Again, I completely agree with trying to breed the best that you can ... and there have been many, many "titled dogs" that have fallen to my dogs as well ... and a Who's-Who list of dogmen along with that. My point is, not every "title-winning" dog is off of a badass animal. Many (including Gr Ch Buck) were off of inbred, game bums. To say that every dog needs to be a badass match dog to "get bred" (or produce great dogs) is simply folly. Many of the greatest dogs in history were not sired by great dogs themselves, but rather by game bums inbred off great dogs.
Again, I completely understand the "small yard" thing. My point was most small yards shoot themselves in the foot, sooner or later, because what they keep will not produce as well as the game dog they got rid of. They also don't have enough breeding experience to understand how things work. All large-scale breeding operations would agree with what I am saying, because they have the large-scale perspective to see the whole picture.
Your college football example is only valid from a superficial perspective. If you want to take a closer look, not every Heisman player was sired by another Heisman father; most, in fact, were not ... so upon closer inspection your argument here supports mine, not yours. I never suggested giving "game bums" a scholarship ... or betting heavy on them in a match ... what I am saying is not to kill them. What you're counseling is killing the players who try hard, but aren't selected for the Heisman, and that my friend is borderline retarded. I would never kill anything for showing heart, for trying its best, never quitting at any time, whether it had ability or not. The willingness to try as hard as possible, even in the face of death, is something special to me ... and it should be to all dogmen.
We do not call these dogs "ability dogs" ... we call them GAME DOGS ... and, when they're game, they deserve to be honored and respected, not killed off. In fact, Frank Fitzwater summed it up best when he said, "Boys, breed your game dogs and you're get your fighting dogs."
I can understand what you're saying about the cold dog thing, but yet I can also see why it can be worth a shot for some.
I will never understand, or agree, with killing ANY truly game dog, ever, so long as it is in good health and has a decent temperament. Truly game dogs, especially if they're inbred on some truly great dog, are oftentimes THE most valuable dog on the yard ... the proverbial Goose That Lays The Golden Eggs
Jack
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