mayfield or lemm

[bolero]

who was better

[CYJ]

Not knowing much about Lemm. Hard to say which was better. I did some fast reading on some posted statements from Lemm. Seems he said Stinson & Glover used his mill keep on Ruby when going into Mayfield's Easy. I was told Stinson was in the road building Asphalt business. That during the day he assigned so many of his workers to walk and road work his dog. That may just be hearsay, no longer remember who told me that.

I was there that day, Lemm may have been also. I was standing by the weigh in station watching Don getting Easy ready to be weighed. I got a good look at Easy and this bitch looked to be in super condition. All the muscles were well defined like a well trained body builder. Don Maloney walked up and looked at her. Said out loud how well conditioned Easy looked.

Later Stinson & Glover brought in Ruby and she looked every bit as good and very well condition. Being a black dog her muscles really popped out under that shiny black skin.

I no longer remember the time or how long that dog pulling show down lasted. What won the day for Ruby was she could bite much harder than Easy. Easy stayed in the front end and tried to bite it out with Ruby. Like Zebo, Vindicator and Molly Bee. Ruby just bit Easy down into the floor. If Easy had not had the type conditioning on her that she had. Match probably would have ended much sooner.

That is not saying Mayfield's Easy bitch was just a walk through, piece of cake. Some months before that I saw Easy win over Irish Jerry's Pool Hall Red. Pool Hall Red was a tough dog herself. These dogs were more evenly matched and Don's Easy bitch showed better over conditioning. Not sure if Irish Jerry used a Tread mill a lot.

The main thing in conditioning that Mayfield brought to the game. Was perfecting the use of the Jenny. Getting it out there to it's correct working length , proper hook up to a wide dog collar instead of a harness. The best working length for the running arm is 40 feet. Taught the need to work our dogs as natural as possible. He was more of a advocate for raw feeding.

At that time we used Mayfield's worming keep, learned to keep dog up off the ground and isolated. V. Jackson used a lot of Mayfield's ideas along with what he learned from B. Davis and the Florida group. At that time the only amount of kibble that was used was the amount that had the dog on weight in the pre keep. In the keep dog was kept on weight with the raw feed.

Tread mills was something we did not use that much. I think Lemm liked to use a tread mill through the whole keep. Those who have read his books and DVD would know for sure.

If V. Jackson had to use the tread mill. Only used it in the pre keep and about half of the first part of the keep. He never went over 30 minutes with it. Most of our dogs were on the smaller size. Liked his road work set up the best.

Well I have this topic started. For those who are more up to date and in the know. If tried it either way let's hear what you think. Mayfield or Lemm? From what I saw if that was the case with Easy and Ruby. Was not one keep better or worse, just one dog better and worse. LOL

[FrostyPaws]

Not ever seeing the men OR their dogs go, it's hard to really make any type of informed decision. Knowing what I know about jennys and mills, I would always favor a jenny over a mill as I believe it allows a dog to get in better shape. Given what I know about both men in their respective time, I would bet over a 10 individual run that Mayfield would win more than lose simply due to the quality of dogs that people were putting in his hands at that particular time.

[EWO]

Agree with Frosty. I never met either one nor did I experience (with or against) one of their keeps so I could not make a 'educated' vote. If I had to choose between the two it would be because of their chosen equipment. When possible I prefer the dogs feet on the ground when working.

Great post CYJ. Great topic. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Agreed. Great post by CYJ.

Despite his interesting story of Ruby and Easy, the fact CYJ so poignantly mentioned was it was the dog in the contest that won, not the conditioning. Lemm may (or may not) have influenced Stinson & Glover's conditioning, but he damned sure wasn't involved in S&G's selection of which dog to bring to the contest

That said, Don Mayfield was associated with some awesome dogs in his heyday, and Stinson & Glover were associated with awesome dogs in their heyday ... but (unless I am just unaware) I don't believe that Robert Lemm was actually involved in selecting/showing/breeding any World Class Ace-level dogs on his own. Building a "free-turning mill" is one thing, and having guys like Stinson & Glover buy his mill is one thing, but Robert Lemm having a proven good eye for a dog, and beating top competition himself, is something else again

That said, I too join the consensus of favoring a jenny over a mill, but even my personal preference notwithstanding, if you made the conditioning part "equal," I would say a prime Don Mayfield had far more experience, a better eye for a dog (and would probably be entrusted with better dogs) than Robert Lemm.

Jack

[EWO]

True. The free spinning keep with the heart rate monitor is great and quite innovative for its time but at then end of the day it is hard to compare keeps when both dogs are seldom equal. A great keep on a sub-par animal will only go so far. I enjoy the topic, wish I could add more and I hope there are some first handers to offer some input. EWO

[bolero]

lemm favored free conditioning whether it was a mill jenny bike or car what he hated was strength work said it would bring lets say a natural 45 heavier and move him up in weight, now he may not have chose the dogs stinson and glover used he was involved in the conditioning aspect and they used a free conditioning keep withy no strength work other than road work and a treadmill so another question is many feel strength conditioning is a must but stinson and glover proved during there time it was not so how dom people feel about that

[EWO]

I think there are many avenues to get to a well conditioned dog. If there was only one right way to do succeed then all of us would be on that page. It would not be smart to go a different route (wrong way) if there was only one way, if that makes sense.

I like explosive type work. I like to see the dog go from nothing to wide open in a blur. I like sprint work be it on a slat mill, a carpet mill or on a cable run. I am not measuring the recovery times like in the Lemm Keep. I have never based work times on heart rate but the principle of work-recover-work are similar.

I also like strength work. But like everything in the dogs, strength work has differing definitions for different people. I like to pull chains, usually about a 1/4 or so of the dog's weight. I like the dog to work under a load. I am doing strength work but not to the point of building big muscles, like pulling hundreds/thousands of pounds. I pull that chain at varying speeds for the muscular endurance, the dog is getting stronger but not all bulked up.

Interested in others opinions as well. EWO

[gotap_d]

I would go with mayfields keep. I dont like the fact that lemm didnt believe in strengh training.

[CYJ]

EWO, you and A. Howle would have got along like peas and carrots. LOL He had a circuit laid out around their large farm. Dog pulled a chain so far. Then walked so far. Next day he worked on sprinting, loping and trotting. He believed in the chain pulling.

Howle was a calm fellow who seldom spoke only when he wanted to say something. Some times M. Gainey or others would try to rib him about what their pulling dog was going to do to his dog. He would smile and say you can not kill my dog. I killed this dog myself in the keep and brought it back to life. LOL

Being he was raised up working long hard hours on a Farm. He believed in working a dog hard and feeding him good. The short time he was in it he won way more than he lost. Never saw one lose due to lack of conditioning. He worked my Face bitch for both of her matches. Had her strong as a Bull and with her hard mouth. The dog pulling did not last long. A. Howle worked the famous V. Jackson's Hank dog for his first dog pull against R. Byrd's (2X) Arizona Red dog.

R.E. Bass of Red Boy fame thought he could steam roll over A. Howle. He beat Bass's dog like a red headed step child. Bass never matched another dog into Howle.

Snake Man came down way back and bought a female pup off Howle. Off his Buckshot dog and Howle's (Martin's Lady). Will see that female bitch and the Lady bitch in Snakeman, Fat Bill's dogs and R. Carter's dogs. Cheers