gameness

[pig mad]

I may be wrong i been hunting pigs with dogs for bout 10 year just the last year or 2 i been leaning towards bulldogs. Anyway last night talking to another bulldog guy he keeps stating that dog is only game talking about my stud choices my sorrell bites like croc and game as they come so i wrap him in cotton wool to breed. Just recently i was given use of a hot little buck/beadroux/sorrell bitch to breed to him but at same time was asked to put the guys mates dog over my other bitch who is nice bitch but his male is cold pig dog when i told this guy last night i plan on culling all that litter but 2 pups going to pighunting homes the main reason being to see how she gos as a mother before another mate will give me semen of his champ that died last time out. This guy i was talking to last night states i wouldnt bother he only game. This comment lost me as i thought that was main ingredient? Am i missing something here???

[OGDOGG]

"He only game" could mean that the dog is game but has no talent.

[pig mad]

It does but is that not enough of a reason to breed it? Would you rather breed a talented cur? Thats what im getting out of the conversation

[skipper]

It is all about taste. I love a game plug, even if it's hard to win with a dog that's just game. Gameness is what separates our dogs from any other breed, and imo should therefore be the most appreciated trait. In my experience you can always add ability and what you think is missing in that game plug by selective breedings. Trust me on this one, it's hard winning with a dog thats just plain game, it's even harder winning with a rough cur.

[pig mad]

Thanks skipper thats how i was thinking id rather pick up a game dog than shoot a cur

[Officially Retired]

While I do understand your partner's point, in that intelligence/talent are what separates the very best, I still agree with Skipper in that consistent, extreme gameness is always worth more than any other trait.

I can't begin to tell you how many "badass dogs" my dogs have stopped passed the 1:30-2:00-hour mark. People that always talk about "quick wins" are always left wanting when they step up in class and face a real bulldog ... that doesn't just "go away" after they get a little winded or because they have "been behind" for an hour. The trouble with game plugs, however, is that too many idiots don't appreciate them and even abuse them. I can think of two dogs in particular that had to deal with stupid owners.

One of them was Brawlee's Tracer, a double-grandson of Ch Tonka. This dog was used as a roll dog several dozen times, and would be taken off the chain and set down again-and-again before his scabs fell off from the last roll. He kept changing hands because no one wanted a dog with "no ability" ... until he got in one genius' hands who decided he would roll Tracer to death. This fine fellow selected his "baddest match dog" and put him on Tracer with the specific goal of killing him. Well, this dog beat the bejesus out of Tracer ... until about the :40 mark when he started to get a little windy ... and then Tracer came up to the top and stopped this talented POS in about :50. But what do you think happened after that? Instead of being an intelligent dogman, and respecting Tracer's extreme gameness, our friend and hero (Tracers retarded owner) became irate at Tracer for stopping is favorite ... and so he put another dog on Tracer to finish him because "he had no time" for game plugs. Fortunately for Tracer, there were a lot of fanciers at pitside, who themselves started to get irate at how Tracer was being treated and the guy was essentially forced to pick up. I don't know what ever happened to Tracer, but I am sure he died an unappreciated, premature death because there is almost nothing off of him.

Another dog that comes to mind is my own Vise-Grip's Igor dog. A littermate to Sassy and Razor POR, Igor was a thick, rugged powerhouse but had "no ability" either. After I sold him to some upstate NY fanciers, Igor also changed hands several times as no one seemed to have the yard space for a truly game dog. They wanted to hang onto their talented curs instead. Time-after-time, some "new owner" would tell me of the badass dogs Igor stopped ... after taking a beating ... and time-after-time I had to hear some new idiot lament that "if only Igor had ability" ... to which I would then say If only those other dogs were game. People don't realize that the ability to keep going *is* an ability. The ability to TAKE punishment (rather than collapse to it) *is* an ability. Not every ability has to do with speed, talent, mouth, etc. ... other abilities have to do with raw power, grit, durability, and determination. Well, Igor had a TRUCKLOAD of these kinds of abilities ... so much so that everything his weight ultimately quit to him ... to where he was finally was put uphill 16 lbs and got ransacked so badly by the disparity in weight that he died afterward ... but he still had that giant cur turning before he died. It was a sad waste of a truly game dog, but so it is when game plugs fall into the hands of those who cannot appreciate them.

Ahh, but I digress. I guess the moral of the story is I agree that physical "talent" is a FAR easier trait to breed for than is truly deep and consistent gameness. If I were breeding hog dogs, however, brainless gameness would make a dog a memory pretty quickly, as dogs do not have to be dead game to be a hog dog. In fact, a lot of times people mix-breed their hog dogs to take some of the gameness out of the animals in favor of some sense, so that the dogs don't just run in there and commit suicide. So, in the particular case of hog dogs, your friend may have a point.

However, in the case of pit dogs, where the sizes are equal, I absolutely think that a person will do better starting with a consistent DG foundation, and build on the abilities, than he will to start with a rough cur foundation and try to build on gameness.

Jack

[skipper]

Handling pressure and stress is indeed a quality that is hard to come by. Dogs that are able to come from way back and turn things around on gameness and being able to not stress out about their situation is the most important trait in these dogs imo. Seen many dogs loose all their confidence when this happens and 5 minutes later they are on the bottom quitting.

[OGDOGG]

Wow that made me thought a lot about one of my young prospect I farmed out to a buddy.
He started up very young as I mentioned in my other post. This guy even scratched to a doa dog every time. His mind is not right somehow cause hell drag that body into a corner and crunch away and won't stop. He is fully on but his talent is low and was always the down dog. But he never stop scratching.
I figure he is not match worthy and hell be the last male I will breed to. Am I making a big mistake with that decision, since his litter mate brother is just as game, but looking like an Ace? I also factor in that I could always produce more like him.
My thoughts on breeding a game bum is that: if he is the last of that blood on your yard, at the moment, then yes breed him to a talented proven bitch. But if he's not the last of the Mohican then wait until you find a suitable bitch to breed to him.
I did a breeding with a game but low talent male to a talented proven bitch and got 3 pups. The male had no talent like the sire. One of the female is very athlectic and talented. The other female has the sire's smarts and the dame's killing instinct. Two out of three match worthy dog is very good for breeding a game bum. So far I bred the athletic bitch, off the bum, to a talented male and got an athlectic litter I like very much. It's all About selective breeding. I wouldn't breed his offsprings back into him, and I wouldn't try to breed any of his bum offsprings period cause they're carrying 2 generations of bum trait in them.

[Officially Retired]

Wow that made me thought a lot about one of my young prospect I farmed out to a buddy.
He started up very young as I mentioned in my other post. This guy even scratched to a doa dog every time. His mind is not right somehow cause hell drag that body into a corner and crunch away and won't stop. He is fully on but his talent is low and was always the down dog. But he never stop scratching.
I figure he is not match worthy and hell be the last male I will breed to. Am I making a big mistake with that decision, since his litter mate brother is just as game, but looking like an Ace? I also factor in that I could always produce more like him.
My thoughts on breeding a game bum is that: if he is the last of that blood on your yard, at the moment, then yes breed him to a talented proven bitch. But if he's not the last of the Mohican then wait until you find a suitable bitch to breed to him.
I did a breeding with a game but low talent male to a talented proven bitch and got 3 pups. The male had no talent like the sire. One of the female is very athlectic and talented. The other female has the sire's smarts and the dame's killing instinct. Two out of three match worthy dog is very good for breeding a game bum. So far I bred the athletic bitch, off the bum, to a talented male and got an athlectic litter I like very much. It's all About selective breeding. I wouldn't breed his offsprings back into him, and I wouldn't try to breed any of his bum offsprings period cause they're carrying 2 generations of bum trait in them.

How do you know his brother is "just as game" if he is an ace and always top dog?

Tombstone was a game bum and produced pretty well ... and Long's Werdo was an extremely game bum and he out-produced every other Jeep dog on the planet, including Jeep's Champions

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Handling pressure and stress is indeed a quality that is hard to come by. Dogs that are able to come from way back and turn things around on gameness and being able to not stress out about their situation is the most important trait in these dogs imo. Seen many dogs loose all their confidence when this happens and 5 minutes later they are on the bottom quitting.

Totally agree with this.