I think this can help get this board on the roll and be a great topic. Why or why wouldn't you outcross your family of dogs? If you do believe you need to outcross your family, why so? And how would you outcross(completely different family or same family different strain)
Well I will start by saying I truely believe in linebreeding, with that being said I added Vise-Grip and Bolio blood to my Hooten's Pistol (Nigerino/Chinaman) dogs because they have a lot of bad traits and are very one dimensional in their pure form.
When I say bad traits, they do things like dig you swimming pools and ponds, chew up their feed bowls and water buckets, fight their chains and kennels, and I have seen where they will bark at leaves on the tree all day.
Most of my dogs like to work up front or at the back, they have no idea of what a good defense is and could careless for one. By adding the Vise-Grip and Bolio blood I was able to get them to start at the top and stay out of the way of falling objects when they are working.
My thing is if it ain't broke why waste time re-inventing the wheel. Your dogs should have one main ingredient, that's gameness. If you have that the next step is find a line that is similar bred to yours and add any traits yours lack. If you can't find it in a similar line then look to an out cross. But once you correct the deficiancy you should be line or inbreeding to lock in those traits.
Now if your dogs lack the main ingredient, then you might want to re-evaluate what your feeding. Meaning if my Pistol dogs lack heart I wouldn't look for Bolio or Vise-Grip dogs to add it, I just get rid of the Pistol dogs and work with the Vise-Grip and Bolio dogs.
I love tight breed stuff but some lines don't do good in-breed but do better with the out-cross you have to know your line 1 know what you are looking for what the breeding will do add or take away from what you are trying make happin look at blind billy who was inbreed and out-crossed but with in his line and look what that produced so if you know what pieces of the puzzle to put together and know what picture you are trying to paint it can be good
To me there is no reason to outcross at all, unless 1) you've linebred incorrectly and have bred yourself into a bad position where you are repeatedly and consistently lacking something major in your family of dogs ... or 2) you have your foundation stock in abundance, and you are satisfied with it, and so you decide to do an experimental outbreeding "just to see what you get."Originally Posted by wrongway
Some great things can come from experimental crosses, but so too can a lot of useless mutts. Therefore, just to outcross as some sort of "knee-jerk" response to having a linebred dog is the mark of a rank amateur breeder. 90% of every greenhorn will go to a good breeder when they start out, and they'll spend their hard-earned money buying a linebred animal ... and the first thing they'll do is "cross it" to something, as if breeding dogs is some sort of a "crap shoot" or roll of the dice. And then they'll buy some "other" line and do the same thing, repeating this stupidity over and over again, and will never take a forward step as worthy breeders.
After years of failure, most people will then say "all breeding is a gamble," but they will have completely missed the fact that the entire point of linebreeding is to create certainty ... and that they have merely failed to get the point, by repeatedly taking a highly-linebred animal from years of a good breeder's work ... and then just repeatedly "crossing it" ... which is basically taking ALL OF THE CERTAINTY that it took years to create, and just throwing it out the window. Some people get this truth right away, while others never will.
Jack
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KEEPING YOUR BLOOD PURE OR CROSSING????
i have heard many fellers say that they love there line pure with no crossed (redboy ect.) but i always have had in the back of my mind is why keep something pure if it needs crossed unless you are just breeding for show papers.
As i have understood that we cross to either add something that are dog was missing and there other cross had, or trying to produce better quility animals. (now if you are breeding on the papers and brood stock mabey it is they way to go, but just curious and want answers
Why do you think pure lines "need" a cross "in the back of your mind?"
Ch Red Bull, for example, from my own line made Champion earlier this year, and he was one of the very tightest-bred dogs I have ever put together in my life.
Here are some other famous inbred dogs:
* Gr Ch Tornado (10xW)
* Gr CH Pedro (9xW, ROM)
* Ch Rascal (8xW, 1xL POR)
* Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch Sir Dog (7xW)
* Gr Ch Zebo (7xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch BB Red (6xW)
* Gr Ch Banjo (5xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch Happy Jack (5xW)
Now then, ask yourself honestly what "outcrossed" dogs are historically any better than these highly-inbred dogs? And, as a matter of fact, take a look at Gr Ch Zukill (6xW) himself my friend. Really take the time to study his pedigree, and you will see he is nothing but a linebred Hollingsworth/Crum type dogThen ask yourself this important question: what "outcrossed" litter did Zukill ever throw that was better than he was ... or that racked-up the 12 wins that he and his linebred littermates racked-up as a litter?
The truth is, sure there are plenty of great outcross dogs, no doubt, but they are NOT any greater than the greatest inbred/linebred dogs, not by a longshot.
With all due respect, you have simply understood wrong. You have been told nonsense by people who themselves never had a real breeding record, they just made "assumptions" about line and inbreeding based on nothing but their imaginations, as opposed to actual experience repeatedly and consistently line- and inbreeding a family of dogs for the right reasons. Sure, there are plenty of paper breeders "keeping it tight" with helpless, inbred bullshit. I agree with you. However, real breeders keep their dogs tight based on their abilities ... which the above pedigrees of these multiple Grand Champions clearly reflect.
So the ultimate answer to your question about inbreeding all boils down to SELECTION, nothing more, and if you can remember just one thing from this post it is this:
[center:7srxgg1c]"There is no such thing as breeding 'too tight';
There is only 'poor selection.'"[/center:7srxgg1c]
SELECTION IS EVERYTHING. So the best advice I can possibly give you would be to really, truly take the time to read those two family breeding articles I posted up at the top of this breeding sub-forum, because I can tell you based on 20+ years breeding nothing but the same family that these principles are 100% true. I don't need to outcross to anything; I can stay within my own line/yard and continue to produce dogs that will whip the competition far more often than they'll ever lose to it ... just like they have been doing all along.
Cheers,
Jack
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If a breeder was down to the last dog of his family and wanted to use that dog to start over he would have to cross it with something. This often happens when doggers don't let the blood out.
Well said, Stonewall. Every time I talk to someone who "won't let the blood out," I think to myself of saying, "Never keep all your eggs in one basket," as all it takes it ONE bad thing to happen and there goes a bloodline.
i thought the culling of bad traits were related to those in the pit ?
This is a very good thread. I just recently did a outcross in hopes of adding in more bottom on consistancy, along with having more high strung, game dogs. Although the stud is proven and very talented animal, i only expect him to produce the average of his genetic make-up which is below average. My question is... With using 2 heavily linebred/inbred dog of different anciestry, does that actually increase the chances of success or the opposite??
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=406531
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