Finishers

[REDRUM]

Ice is honestly a brutal finisher. Perhaps not at the same level that you speak of in Silverback but I can guarntee you he doesn't play around. If there is one thing I know about Ice is he's either ruin you kill you or die trying. I think it would be fair to say that you'd be rather proud of Ice if you could only see him perform. He has also produced one hell of a bitch in Nazi's littermate sister Ms.Red who I belive was the best dog in that litter. Obviously Nazi was a super game animal but his abilities weren't the best. As you mentioned to me before he does not seem to display the traits of a true Poncho/Coki dog but in the end he had what it took to win. Ms.Red on the other hand does posses a great deal of finish (again not first or second hold that you mentioned) ability along with speed, smarts and style. Although I will not go into great detail over the web, she just recently and violently destroyed a double El Negro bitch in :15 leaving everyone there very impressed and with a new found respect for my "crappy Poncho dogs"

Again I will not say that Ice and his offsping are one hold killers but I promise you they are looking to and definitely will close the deal in very quick fashion. In the end and most importantly, I am very satisfied with what I've got in Icestorm. He is in my eyes a Flagship animal.

[Officially Retired]

Ice is honestly a brutal finisher. Perhaps not at the same level that you speak of in Silverback but I can guarntee you he doesn't play around. If there is one thing I know about Ice is he's either ruin you kill you or die trying. I think it would be fair to say that you'd be rather proud of Ice if you could only see him perform.

I have zero doubts that Ice Storm is a superb dog, as he is honestly one of my favorite-bred dogs out there, I just was questioning whether he was a true finisher or not, I was NOT questioning his quality! For example, Ch Mr. Serious was a from my line was a game and brutal dog. He had a very hard mouth and could break your bones, was durable and powerful as a rhino, but he was not looking for "kill spots" ... just to break you down and render you into a pile. Was he a great dog? YES! Was he a stone-cold finisher? No. Same thing win Icon and your dogs sire U-Nhan-Rha. Were they terrific dogs? YES! Were they stone-cold finishers? No.

I am sure I would be proud as hell of Ice Storm, I just didn't think he was a finisher like that, as again I have only had 3 such dogs in my entire breeding career. Yet finish isn't everything, and I have had DOZENS of dogs I am absolutely proud of.

He has also produced one hell of a bitch in Nazi's littermate sister Ms.Red who I belive was the best dog in that litter. Obviously Nazi was a super game animal but his abilities weren't the best. As you mentioned to me before he does not seem to display the traits of a true Poncho/Coki dog but in the end he had what it took to win.

It's like his great-uncle Pretty Boy ... maybe not an ace, but game enough to win over the best on heart ... and you have to take your hat off to that.

Further, I am well aware of the variance in ability between dogs, as (again) in the same fashion Pretty Boy's sister was one of the most talented head dogs you could imagine ... where as he was just average.

Ms.Red on the other hand does posses a great deal of finish (again not first or second hold that you mentioned) ability along with speed, smarts and style. Although I will not go into great detail over the web, she just recently and violently destroyed this double El Negro bitch here in :15 [B]ALLIGATOR CLUB'S ELLIE leaving everyone there very impressed and with a new found respect for my "crappy Poncho dogs"

LOL, that sounds pretty quick and decisive to me

And I do take great delight in when people get a rude awakening as to the quality of these dogs, which is where the handle SmileWiper came from

Congrats on her!

Again I will not say that Ice and his offsping are one hold killers but I promise you they are looking to and definitely will close the deal in very quick fashion. In the end and most importantly, I am very satisfied with what I've got in Icestorm. He's is in my eyes a Flagship animal.

I don't blame you, and I agree he is a flagship animal, just like he's bred to be.

U-Nhan-Rha was a total package animal, rating strong in all categories. Uey was not an ace, but he was a rock-solid dog (a "Marvin Hagler"), with no weaknesses, and one of the highest-percentage producers I've ever had. And Cherry, while she might not have been much as an individual, her sister Little Red Sonja was one of the other one-hold finishers I was talking about, and her other sister Cherry Coke was a fantastic, A-level bitch ... and they're out of the baddest dog I ever had in Stormbringer, bred to his half-sister who (though average) was one of the gamest and most intense bitches I ever had, so your dog really is bred about as strong as I can breed dogs.

So please don't think I was trying to diminish, I was trying to distinguish between a TRUE finisher and a dog that "would finish" ...

It's like the difference in boxing between a true KO Artist ... and a boxer "who can get a KO" ... the KO Artist is powerful enough to completely KNOCK OUT a perfectly healthy, unhurt boxer at any time with ONE shot ... >BAM< ... he's down and out COLD ... while a guy "who can get a KO" may eventually knock his opponent out, and he may keep a brutal pace, but the KO will only come after an accumulation of punches.

Truly heavy-handed one-punch KO Artists are pretty rare in comparison to guys "who can get KOs" ... but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of fantastic, all-around GREAT fighters, who may not be KO Artists, but who are dangerous, superb fighters in their own way (like Ali!).

Jack


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[REDRUM]

Thanks for that response Jack. Now I have a better understaning of what you were commenting on earlier. Glad we could get it out there. I appreciate it.

[wrongway]

I was not intending for my post to be funny. The owners of both dogs told me what their stud dogs are producing. I will hopefully be breeding to one of them if not both in the near future! I had a son of uey/ms Bobbi that would hit the throat as soon as he felt in control but he didn't have the mouth or power to close one.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for that response Jack. Now I have a better understaning of what you were commenting on earlier. Glad we could get it out there. I appreciate it.

Sure thing




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I was not intending for my post to be funny. The owners of both dogs told me what their stud dogs are producing. I will hopefully be breeding to one of them if not both in the near future! I had a son of uey/ms Bobbi that would hit the throat as soon as he felt in control but he didn't have the mouth or power to close one.

That is exactly my point, if you re-read my original post carefully: what one man "calls" a finisher, another man might not.

Like I said, I have had/bred dozens of dogs that "would finish" after awhile ... or that "would try to" finish but might not have the ability ... but I have only had 3 dogs that I would call TRUE finishers.

What "is" or "isn't" a finisher, then, I suppose ultimately depends on how loose, or how strict, a dogman's criteria is ...

Jack


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[H.B.K.]

I've seen a lot of different lines go and the rascal line of dogs especially through pedro bring a lot of finish. I run the art/kingfish line of dogs jack and they will finish u but that is deff not there strongest talent. I do know and believe that the art/kingfish x jeep/ honeybuch / rascal cross is devastaing and r complete hounds with major finish. I also see a lot finish in the tramp dogs.

[Officially Retired]

I've seen a lot of different lines go and the rascal line of dogs especially through pedro bring a lot of finish. I run the art/kingfish line of dogs jack and they will finish u but that is deff not there strongest talent. I do know and believe that the art/kingfish x jeep/ honeybuch / rascal cross is devastaing and r complete hounds with major finish. I also see a lot finish in the tramp dogs.

I have heard that too about the Rascal dogs.

I am not exactly sure how Kingfish Kid mixed his Art dogs, but I think finish was the #1 trait he sought, if I remember correctly.

Jack

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[YigYang]

In my own opinion i beleive the the best dog is an all around dog no doubt. That saying it jack stated that different lines throw differnt traits and performcance yes and that " Next comes (4) the subject of what bloodlines to use. This really is a personal consideration, but either way (if you want to succeed) you need to go with a high-percentage bloodline. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a high-percentage “game” bloodline, but the dogs should definitely win more than they lose, when the money’s on the line. The rest is a matter of personal style.

Do you like wide-open barnstormers, or methodical, slick dismantlers? If you like barnstormers, the Eli/Nigerino type dogs would be a consideration. Many Red Boy/Jocko dogs are like this, and many Boyles-bred dogs are too. The bonus of these kinds of dogs is their style makes them win early – which means you can show them more often, because they don’t take as long to win and (hence) don’t take as much abuse. Their liability, though, is some tend not to be as game ... if they are in there with a good one and are forced to go the long haul ... and thus you will get more curs out of them. Many people don’t mind going through a bunch of curs to get their ace, because they know he will be a money-maker …


However, if you like dogs that tend to be distance athletes, who save themselves for later and come on strong in the end to pull out the win, then I would recommend the Hollingsworth and CH Butkus crosses as well as the CH Bullshit/White dogs. Pure Red Boy dogs tend to be like this also, but they also tend to be very stupid. The bonus of distance athletes is that, as a line, they tend to be game more consistently than other lines, which means you don’t have to cull as many animals. The liability of these kinds of dog is they tend to take longer to win (and thus more abuse), which means they don’t win as many shows, per dog, as more barnstormy dogs do (on the average) ... but in the trenches they are more dependable.
" - pitbull bible Cali Jack

[RFK]

I can say for a fact that I got one that finishes she goes in the throat from go and Already bagged two that's why I've chosen to breed around her to try to get more of those type of workers

[Choctaw]

IMHO, I think the Busenbark line of dogs, produces the best finishing dogs out there. I've seen alot of different bloodlines out there, from alot of different breeders. But those Busenbark dogs, have one thing on their mind, and that's to get you out of there ASAP. I think Virgil dogs, are a close second, but Busenbark dogs as awhole, IMHO, produce consistent punishing, and finishing type dogs!