What breeder/family/dog produces a consistent high percentage of true finishers? I hear talk of the gambler's Virgil dogs, machobuck and abraham's bull dogs. If someone was looking to add this trait to their family of dogs, what breeder/family/dog should they go to. Please speak from experience.
I am in the process of writing a long, detailed response on the Avila's Ouch thread ... but I will say this ... why do you think I am basing so much on Silverback?
And that is why I kept the Coca Cola line before that ... straight throat/gut dogs
That Bull stuff back when J.A was breeding it had finish, it was something you seen in a lot of his dogs. He never told folks how they were bred but he had quite a few and they could finish..
First off let me say that I am notr being a smartass or attempting to piss you off, just asking a sincere question. Why even consider a dog as a candidate for a breeding if it is not a solid all around bulldog that is lacking nothing?? I would personally only breed individuals that displayed outstanding qualities in every department in an attempt to produce all around athletes that would not lack anything.. I hear people talk about adding this or that to their dogs and it makes Me wonder if that particular worker needs to be looked at deeper as an individual before considering it a good candidate for any breeding. Just my thoughts and opinions.. OklahomaDan
Kingfish told me that is the main trait he bred for over all else, which is primarily why he focused on Art blood, but which is also why he bought and incorporated Zukill.Originally Posted by CitySwamp
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Dan, I respect your opinion and judgment, and if you're actually breeding dogs that truly are outstanding at everything, then hats-off to you. If more people adhered to this, namely only bred dogs that were outstanding in EVERYTHING, it would certainly reduce the number of breedings being done today
The only trouble I have with this provisio is that the word "outstanding" is open to interpretation. What is "outstanding" to one man may only be so-so to another man. Further, to sincerely expect every dog to be absolutely outstanding in every department, including finish, is in my opinion unrealistic. For example, I have personally bred dozens of dogs that were fully-capable of beating, becoming, and/or producing Champions ... in the very fastest of fast lanes ... and yet they were not outstanding at absolutely everything. Moreover, out of all the topshelf dogs I have bred, I have only had 3 dogs in my life that were what I considered to be TRUE FINISHERS, which to me means dogS that could "X" you dead as fried chicken with the 1st or 2nd throat hold they put on you. A true finisher IMO, when s/he gets in there, it is deep, they stay there, they root, and they cut-off all systems (air & blood) to your head ... to where the opponent basically just deflates and shits itself within minutes of the hold. True finish is a rare as hell trait!
Now mind you, I have bred hundreds of dogs in 23 years that would "go to the throat"; yet I have had only 3 dogs that have been able to take your life clean like this with the first (or at most second) hold they got. So when I say the word "finisher," I mean a finisher, not a dog that will "try" to finish, as I have had no telling how many dogs that will "go in the throat." The truth is, most dogs that "go to the throat" will lose the hold, or they'll switch to something else, or they will not have enough of the throat in their mouth, etc. ... or, even if they will finish, they can only get there after they've broken the dog down, waited until the dog is beaten and tired, and is already pretty much stretched out, so it's a given.
NONE of these other dogs is what I personally would call a True Finisher, even though ALL of them will "go to the throat," and IMO what many people "call" finishers are not.
A true finisher, to me, is a dog that (say) is on your head and then--quick as a flash--downs the opponent while fresh and just goes right in there, up under the jaw, deep in that throat ... or, if the opponent is still standing, comes from the side, chewing his way in, and methodically roots with purpose, up under that jaw, until that other dog just deflates before your eyes ... and goes to shittin' itself ... and will either be saved by its owner or die right there. And I just don't think most dogs that anyone breeds are truly outstanding finishers like that.
So I am not really sure that many dogs in the history of the game could actually fit the criteria of being "outstanding at everything": gameness, ability, intelligence, athleticism, conformation, rugged durability, tireless stamina, mouth, finish, etc. The truth is, virtually every dog that has ever been shown has some weakness (or at least some trait that is only so-so), which means (depending upon how extreme we interpret your credo) we won't have many dogs to breed to (if any at all!), if we really do hold ourselves to the standard that "no dog should get bred unless it is outstanding at everything."
In the end, Dan, I am inclined to believe that being "outstanding at everything" is a very rare event, and while it may be the ideal goal in everyone's breeding efforts, yours and mine, at the end of the day most dogs are not going to live up to this ideal in some form or fashion. This doesn't mean they aren't damned good dogs, fully capable of winning in top competition, but it's like expecting every single boxer who fights to be Sugar Ray Robinson ... aces at everything ... it is simply a very, very rare phenomenon ... and even when you find fighters of this caliber, they still won't produce aces like themselves much, if at all, either.
Aces are simply rare, and they disappear as quickly as they pop up, and the funniest thing of all is ... most aces aren't even created by other aces ... but rather they're created by mixing dogs of different strengths/weaknesses together in the right way
Cheers,
Jack
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GREAT POST JACK!!! Thanks for that! We have the same opinion on what a true finisher is. That's why I will try to add rosebud and ice storm to my program.
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I don't know if you're trying to be funny, or if you're repeating what you heard, but those dogs (while very well bred, and I have heard are very honest dogs) do not have the true finishing trait mentioned here on this thread ... although they do have many other excellent and important traits.
Jack
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I'm curious to know how you have come to this conclusion? In all fairness I would hope that this assumtion is not being made based on the one dog that has been shown.
I am only speaking in regards to the stud dog that I own.
Yes sir, very true, I agree with you, opinions vary, as far as working observations go. What I may think is outstanding, may not bust a grape in Welch's back yard, with a pair of signatured Tiger Woods spiked golf shoes on all fours for you or someone else. And honestly, all that matters is that any breeder always breeds with the thought or attempt of bettering his family of workers and the fact that we each our happy and confident in what we feed.. Great reply...all the best.
Well, I am going off of what little I remember about our conversation about his performance (which you said was excellent), but I sure don't remember any mention of you saying he was a straight finisher. That is something I am pretty sure I would have remembered. The same goes with my recollections of the performances of Rosebud and his owner: he's a good, game dog--just not a true finisher.
Although there is a remote chance of your dog being a brutal finisher, because of Stormbringer, again that chance would be very remote. For out of all the pups Stormbringer ever threw, only 2 of them were finishers ... and Cherry Cola (your stud's mother) wasn't one of them. And while maybe this trait skipped a generation in your dog's pedigree, the fact is there is no dog in Rosebud's 6-gen ped that was a true finisher like I described. So, as their breeder, and as the owner/breeder of virtually every dog in their pedigrees, I would be curious to know if my recollection is bad and would welcome any honest correction.
Are you saying Ice Storm is a stone cold finisher?
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