i believe the person's name is jim lanting he is just a show dog breeder but the quote still holds true
i believe the person's name is jim lanting he is just a show dog breeder but the quote still holds true
Certainly does.
Ok, so I'm still stuck on this COI deal. If the ICB website is accurate, the fact that our dogs had a variety of founders shouldn't matter. We should still be seeing genetic disorders with the high amounts of inbreeding that some bulldog folks are doing. For example, I've got this dog: http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=62598
If you open up the pedigree to 14 generations, the COI is greater than 90%! She's only 6 months old right now, but she doesn't seem to have any issues yet.
The only thing I can figure is that maybe the pedigree is incorrect somewhere and that her actual COI is lower. I don't know.
This is just my thoughts. No real experience.
I would say two explanations. One the dog is bred like advertised. The only thing is that there are several different breeders involved. This where nature and nurture come into play as well one guy might be looking for a slightly different trait than the next. Maybe Mr. Durant was looking for one of those all night dogs. TVK added a shot of Eli that carried heavy into those dogs that look very heavy Red Boy. The Swinson and Lanier dogs were heavy Red Boy but could really shut it down. So just looking at the pedigree one would say Cottingham/Red Boy. Break it down breeding to breeding and there are some considerable differences.
Secondly, as you say, there may be some inaccuracies in the pedigree.
Interested in the responses.
EWO
that ICB site is a little biased so you have to take the info and remember that. also like EWO so elegantly said three different breeders looking for different things in the dogs they bred. or like ewo said might be a little paper mishandling
The Ins and Outs of Pedigree Analysis, Genetic Diversity, and Genetic Disease Control
Tufts' Canine and Feline Breeding and Genetics Conference, 2003
Jerold S. Bell, DVM
this guy is not so biased and explains it pretty good in this article
also it is a brother sister breeding but gloria is a complete out cross
Some of those TVK dogs were colored like the Cottingham dogs but they were all Eli underneath. So in that pedigree on the left hand side it is a Cottingham/Red Boy bred dog. As the cursor moves to the right the first couple of breedings were paper/money breeding. Further to the right there were a couple three guys who knew exactly what they wanted to ride up and down the road with on Saturday night.
In turn they bred the same family of dogs but selected for different reasons.
On the Red Boy click, one of the breedings where selection and personal experience trumps the COI's and 'book knowledge' is the Mims Red Boy family. Same breeder, same original Red Boy dogs, and a lot of the COI's are similar but yet three completely different strains , all Red Boy and same breeder but different dogs.
All were and threw deep game dogs and most were early starters. Jiggs thru a much rougher dog, with mouth to spare, much more straight ahead. Punch threw all night game dogs, sometimes less talented, but it was often said if there was one hair on the tip of his tail still living, he would make his scratch. And Punch threw that. Spiffy, threw really methodical, break down dogs, not as much mouth as Jiggs, just as game as Punch, but always looking for the time and place to show finish.
When a single breeder uses selection based on traits there can be different dogs from the same family (pure) that are and throw completely different dogs.
Factor in the same family with different breeders and things change quickly, almost exponentially.
There are not a lot of competitive pure red boy dogs out there, especially ones from the same breeder. Red Boy may be the most popular 'pure' family out there because they will sell when no others will (basis for the decline in the family). But Red Boy is a family where several strains from different breeders can be stacked and you get throw back dogs to when the dogs were more competitive/more front running dogs.
I have downloaded much of the information that has been put up and borrowed a book from a friend. Enjoy the topic. I just think I should have read more, thought more and learned more a number of years ago. The Saturday night or bust thinking has left me a little short in a lot of categories.
EWO
I agree, when I speak to outcross I don't mean a family bred dog. For instance taking a heavy Dirty jersey bred dog and taking it to a Bolio dog i consider that breeding within the family. When i speak outcross i mean taking a inbred Hap dog and breeding that to an Eli dog.Originally Posted by bolero
Once you get into believing how a dog is bred the argument changes. I believe either way if Eli is bred how stated by FB he is a heavy linebred Dibo dog. If you look at how DM stated, he's a grandson of Dibo with some Dibo on top.. Zebo is another linebred Dibo dog. Somehow or another they are family related, i do not believe Zebo to be off Eli at all though as some rumor to be.
to me success is winning and being able to maintain the ability to win in your program. Not many folks get 2 out of 4. Some will say it but not many get that in every litter, most folks get 2 out of 7 but you will only hear but the 2 that won and the ones that lost lol. Folks will say 2 out of 4 bc 2 won and 2 lost, 1 game and 1 quit so # wise it looks good but it really be 9 pups in the litter. 2 out of 7 isn't great but it's better than not getting no winners.
I agree selection is everything, i never have concerns for any other man yard unless my opinion is asked from that individual.
Thanks! I'll check that one out. And your point about Gloria being an outcross is valid, but still, the 90% COI suggests that 90% of this pup's alleles are exact copies of each other. Not much genetic diversity there.
This is a question I have always had about COI's, especially when they are really high.
What is up when two littermates have the really high COI but are completely different when it comes to traits?
EWO
Do you mean behavioral traits or physical traits? Physically, you would expect them to be very similar, but behavior is shaped by environment as well as genetics. And even if the pups grow up in the same environment, they have different experiences. One may get more/different attention from the dam or more/different attention from siblings. If raised with kids, one might be the favorite of one child while the other is the favorite of another child so they're both spending time with different people who handle them differently. So many factors that can have an influence on their behavior.
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