Kinzinbaw's clouse blood

[S_B]

I guess it’s a matter of taste when it comes to how KZB’s line is valued.
There will not be enough recognition or accolades for some to respect what he was accomplished.
He did his thing high on a hill, for his own edification, to the standards he was taught.
He didn’t care about titles.
He didn’t sell dogs to support himself.

This is my favorite part. Great post.

S_B

[ragedog10]

Very good read.

[Officially Retired]

James,
Thank you for permitting me to make this post.

James, you lost your subscription, because you didn't follow The Rules. The rules directly state:

Rule 2: No “multiple users” per one account either (if “you” sign up for an account, then only “you” may post here under that name/handle--your friends will have to create their own accounts);
Rule 3: Anyone caught using multiple accounts, or letting “other people” use their account, will IMMEDIATELY lose their subscription (no exceptions and no refunds), as I am very serious about this;

Mark Mallard, since you couldn't be bothered with paying for your way in here, at least stop referring to yourself in the third person. Man-up and sign your name to what you say. You talk about all this "honor" and "integrity," yet you're too cheap to pay $30 to secure your own ticket into here, and you don't even have the integrity to sign your name to what you say. It's always pretty lame when a full-grown man can neither pay his own way in this world nor sign his real name to what he professes

Jack,
When I see some of the posts concerning KZB dogs, it’s natural to assume there are ROMs, PORs GR CH’s, in the pedigrees. Most owners and observers of these dogs are a discrete lot but often extoll the greatness of the line. One would assume there are titled dogs and widespread use from the paddock.

I am torn between what to think about this post. While most are expressing a "nice post" mentality, and are eager to read about an elder line, I am seeing some of that you wrote as a dig at me, and all of what you wrote as a justification of a line that was NOT preserved "to standard." The truth is, THE standard of all standards is the ability to win in open competition.

As I mentioned in my prior post, nobody respects the effort to preserve a pure line more than I do. The fact is, 99.99999% of any dogman who has ever fed a bulldog on this planet has only "read about" maintaining a pure bloodline, including you. I am actually one of the 00.00001% Club who has actually lived this and breathed this, maintaining my own bloodline for more than 2 decades all tracing back to the first dogs I ever owned and bred

The difference is, my dogs have won all over the world. Despite what you write, I honestly don't know anyone "extolling the virtues" of the KZB line with their hard-earned money, thinking these dogs can win by actually competing with them in open competition. The simple fact is, most people who use combat dogs are "a discreet lot," otherwise they would wind up in jail. Yet we constantly hear about Tant dogs, Hollingsworth dogs (who only bred his pure line for 7 years), even White dogs competing at the top of the food chain ... yet I never see KZB dogs up there. Why is this, if he's been breeding these dogs so long, and kept them to such a "high standard"?

A previous post under the ch. Hobo Jack thread describes the characteristics of the line pretty well.
Nothing more or less. Still, based on what some share, you would think Elvis reincarnated into a dog.

I am sorry, but "a" Champion dog like Hobo Jack just doesn't excite me (in terms of creating any kind of "big picture," though he is beautiful as an individual). I have bred too many DG, 2-3 hour winning dogs, Champions and producers of Champions, seen and displayed in open competition, EVERY year I bred dogs, beginning in 1993 (and continuing WITHOUT EXCEPTION, until last year), to be "impressed" with any man's record who isn't able to do likewise

Champion Hobo Jack is a beautiful dog, and I would be proud of him myself. But he is a composite of Bolio/Clouse and Maloney blood. The fact that he is 33% Clouse's Stabber blood (my favorite Clouse dog) does make him a special animal, but let's face it, he is no pure Clouse dog. He needed Bolio and Maloney blood to become a Champion. Still, Bolio/Clouse/Maloney has always been Patrick's winning combination, and Ch Hobo Jack is an interesting "refreshing" of the Clouse element of this basic, winning combination. Even if we forget about "pureness" altogether, why is he the only "mixed" dog out there who's a Champion?

Let me remind you that breeders like Tom Garner can still produce pure Chinaman dogs capable of making Champion (let alone mixes).
Hollingsworth produced a purebred Lady In Red Champion.
I have produced pure Poncho dogs that have become Champion.
There are many purebred Crenshaw Honeybunch Champions.
Where are the pure KZB-bred Clouse Champions?

I know you're paying tribute to KZB, and that is fine, but I AGAIN ask the question ... Where's the Beef? (wins/Champions)

It is hard to get excited about "stories" without results.

In the end, I respect a very few breeders, and I idolize none.

Hollingsworth was the man who taught me. He too bred his own strain, went straight to the top, even though he bred for nowhere near as long as KZB. Hollingsworth's dogs made Champion in their pure form. They shook up the world in their outcrossed form, competing with the best in the world, for decades, and they eventually dominated and changed the sport. Hollingsworth's dogs are found in Garner's dogs, Southern Kennels' dogs, my dogs, RTK dogs, etc. So why aren't there KZB's dogs in top yards by comparison, after 35 years of breeding?

You wrote an article about Clouse/KZB
I wrote a book on The Hollingsworth Dogs.
But I still think he had some wacky ideas, and I bred away from his dogs eventually.

The difference, of course, is making a difference in the breed.
I will again repeat that Hobo Jack is a beautiful, apparently high-quality dog ... but is that it?
Why is it KZB's dogs never really made a dent, anywhere, if their quality is so great?

Show me 10-20 Hobo Jack's, and I am excited and interested. But if that's it after 35 years, then he has to be looked at as A FLUKE.

You may think I am being a jerk, but your post reminds me of those "secret fighting styles" they advertise in junk magazines, trying to get you to send money to some "secret grandmasters" of a "secret style" of fighting.

The fact is, THE BEST fighters in the world FIGHT FOR MONEY ... and none of these "secret grand masters" would stand a snowball's chance in hell in a fight with a top, professional fighter.

I have the same opinion of "secret strains of bulldogs" ... if they were TRULY world class, they wouldn't be a secret.

I spoke to Mark Mallard (Muh-lard), who has a great deal of experience with Clouse dogs, as he owned and co-owned dogs bred by Bert himself. Mallard saw those dogs straight, crossed, etc.
Some readers may recall the tribute website he ran some years ago, titled “Bert Clouse and His Dogs”.
Clouse died in 1982. By that time, his line was 40 years old.
All the inherent good and bad traits that come with a family line enduring that time span were present, so great care had to be taken when choosing a prospect to move forward with.

You are Mark Mallard, so stop lying and pretending you're not. Pay your own way here, and then sign your name to what you say, like an honest man, if you want to respond to me ... rather than sneaking on here for free, on someone else's account, which is a form of thievery, and then pretending to be someone you're not

I don't allow this kind of thing on here

Keep in mind, Mark, that you are talking to someone in me who ran his own line for 25 years. My dogs are still able to become, meet & defeat Champions, or go out 100% DG trying. If I got all of my dogs back, I could have a random, accidental kennel breeding in my sleep and produce better dogs than what most people spend $$ trying to produce, flying all over the country or the world.

Therefore, if "great care" needs to be taken in breeding KZB dogs together, then that right there says everything that needs to be said about the true competitive quality of the line

KZB received his dogs directly from Bert. Not long before Bert died, KZB traveled across country and bred his pure Clouse female to Bert’s Judge dog. I confirmed this with RC, who was Bert’s protégé and actually carried out the breeding. Under Bert’s tutelage, KZB selected and bred dogs to the standard as he learned from his mentor.

This is all rubbish IMO. Nobody can keep anybody else's "standards" alive.
We each have our own eyes and our own standards, etc.

Hollingsworth told me the secrets to high-percentage litters, which is what I passed on in my book, and it is what I passed on in my dogs, which dogs have actually met and defeated other great dogs and dogmen in open competition, every year I put my dogs out there and/or lost DG trying. But I still made MY OWN decisions. Yes, some of my dogs quit too, but this was always a very rare exception.

Over the last 25 years, my dogs have defeated dogs bred and/or shown directly from such greats as L.A. Dream Team, BMW, Irish Jerry, Hell on Earth, Hardcore, ProSet, XMen, Captain America, Gamedog Inc., Crenshaw, Rockbottom, WCC, Hargrove, Garner, Ultimate Warrior, Patrick, etc., etc., etc. In the last 35 years KZB has been breeding dogs, whose great dogs have his beat?

Even KZB's idol, Bert Clouse, actually produced dogs that got out there and won in open competition, and they also were bred and produced dogs that won in open competition. Same with Hollingsworth's dogs, same with my dogs, etc. I do NOT, however (nor have I ever in 20+ years in dogs) seen any KZB dogs up there at the top of the food chain ... other than Hobo Jack. Why is that? Too discrete? Or, perhaps, could is be that all of that "great care" that needs to be used in breeding them really just another way of saying, "They're no longer competitive?"

Bert Clouse had such a profound influence with KZB, that he (and his wife) dedicated themselves to perpetuating the line, as close to its original form as possible. For the last 35 years, he has maintained the dogs to be very “Clouse-like” in both form and function. Mallard told me that when he visited KZB’s yard for the first time, he thought he walked through a time warp as the dogs were very “Clouse looking”. On the property, there are used axles in a graveyard memorial for the ancestors who preceded the current paddock.

That is very interesting from an historical perspective, but (I am sorry to say) my interest wanes if there is no corresponding success record to go along with any story about any breeder. From a pure connoisseur's perspective, I do appreciate any man trying to keep a pure strain alive, but it only matters if the dogs are still kept competitive. I am very well aware that not every dog will be match quality. My Duke Nukem dog was not match quality, but he still was game, had good air, and good structure. He still was able to be bred within my own line and produce a complete animal in U-Nhan-Rha, and eventually a Champion in Ch Red Bull.

Where is the corresponding success in the pure KZB dogs?

I wish someone had kept the pure Hollingsworth dogs alive. In fact, I received the "pure Hollingsworth dog" Red Tide's Ali as a gift to work with. The dog was beautiful, and it was wonderful to see a "pure representative" ... but, unfortunately, the dog had a malformation in its heart, had ZERO body strength, and wasn't a true fighting dog. I had dogs half its size that would whip him. He died from a spider bite, and I was curious to see what he would produce, but I felt in my bones I was actually DOWNgrading my stock by breeding to him.

In other words, I wouldn't want even a "pure Hollingsworth dog" if it wasn't capable of winning or producing winners. It is POINTLESS to keep anything "pure" if you are NOT also keeping them able to win in their "pure" state

Perhaps the most remarkable thing about being on KZB’s property was the way he and his wife live. They live in a house trailer, on a very rural patch of land in front of their secured dogs. He and his wife successfully raised a family of accomplished adult children (except for one boo-boo) in an off-site respectable home, while now spending most of their time, cultivating their family of dogs on the trailer property.

Been there, done that.
I may not have adult children, but I have lived in a trailer (or even a van at one point), perpetuating MY family of dogs. And, unlike KZB, I bred my own family. I used a Hollingsworth dog, but I used my own idea to breed to a dog in Hammer, and I built a line based on an animal of my own creation (Poncho) who came from this breeding. I also used breeding standards of my own tastes/likes/dislikes. Even though I respected Hollingsworth, I respect my own ideas and desires first. I would never just breed "Hollingsworth dogs to Hollingsworth dogs," unless the dogs did what I wanted them to do. I will always give credit where it is due, but I am not such a lemming that I am going to subordinate who I am to live-out someone else's bloodline. And I honestly can't respect anyone who does this either.

The old man is extremely smart, private and shrewd. He has a university degree and had many choices in life but was humble and content to work as a barber, as it permitted him to “maintain” his other interests. He is protective of his line and of wary those who would exploit it or use it improperly. He remains very private. Due to the relationship and influence from Bert Clouse, I think KZB saw himself as being charged with the responsibility to dedicate his life to the dogs, as his mentor did. Screwy? Maybe.

I lived this too, buddy.
It is screwy.
But I didn't just "write about" this kind of "screwiness," I lived it, so I can empathize with his motivation.

I too have a BA degree in philosophy from UCLA and a genius-level IQ. I too had many choices in life, but I fell completely into the dog game. I didn't even become a barber, I immersed myself 100% into these dogs, devising a way to earn 100% of my livelihood by creating the gamest, best dogs I could create, the best information about dogs I could possibly create, the best products for dogs I could possibly create; even the best database on dogs I could possibly create. I have always given 100% of my best into what I have done. I never sold drugs; I never hung a paper. And I was pretty private too. I may have advertised online, but it was VERY rare for me to allow anyone over to the yard. The difference is, my dogs actually won and kicked ass in every state, Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, and Asia. I didn't just "roll dogs" in my back yard and call my dogs "a secret." I eventually abandoned breeding, because I have better things to do with my life, but I will always love these dogs as long as there's a breath of life in me.

That said, to me, "improper use" of these dogs is to perpetually breed them with NO INTENT on keeping them capable of winning

He privately bred and culled the dogs as he was taught.
No fanfare. No recognition, accolades or outside rewards.
Just decades of doing what he was compelled to do.
Mallard said that if you saw what he passed on in his “spring cleaning”, you would plead for his culls.

You see, this is where I turn cold. Any man who only does "what he is taught" isn't man enough to come up with his own ideas

We all learn from those who came before us, but the whole idea isn't just to be a mindless drone of someone else's ideas/habits, the idea is to take the good ideas of others and improve upon them, and to forever learn and grow as you go along.

I kept my dogs pure, and I used the theory on high-percentages that I learned from Hollingsworth, but I bred for a style I liked and didn't just breed "pure Hollingsworth" dogs together, privately in my own back yard. I gave the man my respects, but I also had my own ideas, and bred to my own desires.

I went to Patrick, learned from him too, and eventually created a bloodline that went 5-0 matched into pure Patrick dogs. I read good books and articles on the breed, learned a lot based on my own experience, but I didn't just stop there. I eventually created THE BEST BOOK on this breed that's ever been written. I also took the great idea of an online database, that the originator came up with, and improved and made this idea even better. WTH is the point of being a "yes man" to someone else? What is the point of monkey-see, monkey-do, without improvement?

Bert Clouse produced Champions and producers of Champions, influenced some of the great yards of dogs of all time, but where is KZB's similar mark in the game? If there were dogs like Hobo Jack all over the country, I wouldn't be asking these questions. I wouldn't have to.

Decades of "doing the same thing," without IMPROVEMENT OR SUCCESS isn't "dedication"; it is insanity.

And as far as me "pleading" for any man's culls, speak for yourself. My culls have produced Champions, Grand Champions, and producers of Dogs of the Year, so what have KZB's BEST dogs done to be compared to my culls, to say nothing about the record of my best dogs? From the sound of it, KZB's very best dogs couldn't kiss the ass of my culls ...

The old man occasionally let a dog go outside of his yard, in order to keep them honest.
Several of the winners in a KZB pedigree were bred by the old man but campaigned by others.
This way there was no kennel blindness or stacking the deck to his advantage. Those dogs made it back to the yard.
Within 35 years of breeding, he only published 3 ads in the SDJ and this was only to seek out other Clouse dogs or those who had an understanding of the Clouse line.

Why couldn't he keep his dogs honest on his own yard?

In the heyday of my career, I ONLY rolled with my own dogs 98% of the time, yet when I sold my dogs they won (and/or produced winners) wherever they got off the plane.

If you know what you're looking at, you're not "blind" at all when you're looking at your stock, YOU ARE THE STANDARD-SETTER

When Bert Clouse died, there was an occasional pure Clouse dog that was worth a bet.
Many were shy and thin boned; however, when used properly in a breeding program, you were able to produce the same traits that Patrick related about Clouse dogs in an interview. That is, gameness and long haul endurance were added. By the way, before Patrick’s kennel went down, where do you think the little dark brindle dogs he had segregated away from his customers came from?
Some people would ask, what are those dogs over there? Patrick wouldn’t answer.
Mallard says that the KZB dogs are a flashback to what Clouse dogs were at that time of Clouse’s desth.
You can expect the same results. For some, this is a great thing, while to others it is a waste of time.

If only an "occasional" Clouse dog was worth a bet, then Clouse too let the integrity of his dogs slip.

Being shy and thin-boned is something I would NEVER let happen to my dogs ... they are rugged, durable, and FRIENDLY ... and I wouldn't put up with that kind of crap, so again, it is all about STANDARDS. There is always a reason WHY some bloodlines can carry on, and still succeed, where others peter-out and fail, and that will always be SELECTION

And finally, having been to Pat's yard, multiple times, those brindle dogs of which you speak were actually pure Indian Sonny dogs (down from No Regrets/Gut Ripper (GR), etc., which produced the famous Ablizin's Tiger, etc.)

The only recent injection Pat had of pure Clouse blood came from Homer, ROM from Romero, and they were much tinier, very thin-boned, etc.

We all know who the blowhards are that bash everybody else’s efforts so that you will only buy their dogs. KZB’s protégé was tired of hearing the criticism of his mentor’s work and brought out the “Bert” dog. He campaigned him to whomever was interested. The blowhards didn’t step up but Mallard was at both events. In fact he officiated the second. Mallard said for the first event, a dog was selected to counter the KZB dog’s style. This dog was reputed to be a real widowmaker and had a few K’s in his resume. His conditioning was overseen by one of the best in Mexico. This beastie was everything he was rumored to be and offered an inside look of the KZB dog’s anatomy. The sounds from pitside was said to be disgusting. In the end, the KZB dog put the quit on old killer.

This may have been exciting for me to read in my first or second year of dogs, but DO YOU KNOW how many "killers" my dogs have stopped cold, snuffed, sometimes even DOA'd without getting bit back in return?

Sorry, names and titles of dogs defeated means something to me, not "isolated stories" without a single recognizable name being mentioned ...

A different train of thought was used to select the style for the next contestant but in the end, that dog quit as well. Not more than 40 people attended both events. Not private but not a multi-card event.

El Nazi is a dog a customer of mine bred, who was purebred off my stuff on top, bred to a 1/4 Poncho bitch on bottom (Anderson's Legend). He was shown on a multi-card show, won BIS in 2+ hours, and is considered by many to be the gamest living dog in Mexico (if not the world), with many 20-40 year veterans who claim he is the gamest dog that have ever seen in their lifetime, 2 of whom told me it made them question the morality of our sport, after seeing El Nazi take what he took to get his win. (Note: it would be indecent to post a current photo of him.)

I first started breeding dogs in 1990, and again, I can post NAMES OF DOGS when I make my claims, and I can go back to 1993 (when the dogs from my first breedings grew up) when a son of Missy lost DG in 2:45 to a Candidate for DOY, where I had another 10 veterans call me and say that was the gamest dog they'd ever seen too, after he crawled, rolled, flopped, and did what he had to (also winning a "Gamest dog of the 1990s" poll on Nam's old board) ... and I can cite SCORES of similar displays of gameness ... all the way up to last/this year ... while you post of "ONE secret isolated match." Mark, you're not talking to either a beginner or someone who doesn't know how to breed his own badass dogs this time. You're talking to a guy who's lived what your mentor has lived, and who has produced 10x as many game, badass dogs as he has, the whole way.

I am sorry, but I will never be impressed with 'an' isolated story of "a win" ... from a guy who's been in for 35 years.

I lean more towards an, "Is that it?" mentality ...

The only thing that would impress me from a 35-year veteran breeder would be (maybe) an uneventful beginning, followed by 30+ years of consistent success

So as the world turns, the old man remains. KZB is older now and well into his 70’s.
Not sure how much longer he will be with us.

I hope he lives a long, happy life. I hope his dogs can stay alive and BE COMPETITIVE.

Which means I hope you can list the pedigrees of MANY KZB-bred dogs (or dogs right off of KZB dogs) that have won and become Champion ... rather than just one.

I guess it’s a matter of taste when it comes to how KZB’s line is valued.
There will not be enough recognition or accolades for some to respect what he was accomplished.
He did his thing high on a hill, for his own edification, to the standards he was taught.
He didn’t care about titles.
He didn’t sell dogs to support himself.
I won’t repeat why Mallard said he took his Clouse tribute site.

This is supposed to put him on "high moral ground" but, to me, it shows that he had NO STANDARDS.

Hate to burst your bubble, but THE BEST fighting dogs get matched for money, or are bred with the intent to be capable of being matched for money, they don't sit there getting fed dogfood.

If, after 35 years, he can still only "do what he was taught," then he seems incapable of learning and growing as an individual.

He doesn't have to win titles himself, but he should be able to produce dogs capable of winning and achieving titles.

Hobo Jack is a fine example. Again, I would like to see you post a dozen more like him. The simple fact is, Hobo Jack is the ONLY dog of interest of any dog in his pedigree ... until you get back to the other winners way in back of him. I understand some of the "untitled dogs" in his ped may be very good. U-Nhan-Rha was a very good dog, was never matched, and has no titles. But he produced winners (many winners, not just 1). He, and every dog in his pedigree, produced winners and DG dogs.

You have to have more than just 1 winning dog to be able to prove your line.

Now, as far as "selling dogs to support yourself" goes, if that's supposed to be a dig at me, then you can kiss my ass. I bred and sold competitive bulldogs, that could (and did) win everywhere in the world they got off the plane, SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES in 2 decades of effort. I can see no virtue in "sitting by myself" in a trailer, breeding shy thin-boned dogs that COULDN'T win or produce winners, but once or twice in 3 decades of effort.

And why don't you tell us yourself why YOU took down your Clouse tribute, after you pay me for the ability to use my site, like an honorable man, and stop trying to sneak in here and pretend you're "someone else"

This is all I can offer to give some insight to the KZB dogs.

I appreciate the info. I don't appreciate the idea that people who sell dogs for money are inherently less honorable than those who don't.

I personally don't care if a man sells dogs, or does not sell dogs, the only thing I care about is CAN THEY WIN and ARE THEY GAME ... in HIGH PERCENTAGES?

If the answer to both of these questions is YES, then what that man has to say will be of interest to me, as a fellow breeder of COMBAT DOGS.

However, if the answer is NO, and all a guy can do is say he has bred shy, inbred, thin-boned dogs for 35 years (that can neither win nor produce winners in anything but a rare blue moon), then sorry, I have zero interest in hearing "how" such a man "did that"

I have nothing but respect for ANYONE who tries to create, maintain, preserve, and IMPROVE upon a bloodline ... so long as the dogs are KEPT CONSISTENTLY USEFUL ... and do not become use-less.

So, again, my question is ... where is the consistency?

I would love to see 20 more photos of excellent specimens like Hobo Jack ... so I hope he isn't the only example you have.

Jack

[Black Hand]

Ed told me one time, if youre putting some good ones on the ground...you might find your dogs out numbering the hours in a work week and that's a problem only solved by letting some go. If you got to work 60 hours to feed 60 dogs, you're probably better off quitting your job, caring for your dogs full time and selling some. You'll save a shitload of time and possibly make just as much money.

[jawman]

Quote Originally Posted by GUNNY View Post
I guess it’s a matter of taste when it comes to how KZB’s line is valued.
There will not be enough recognition or accolades for some to respect what he was accomplished.
He did his thing high on a hill, for his own edification, to the standards he was taught.
He didn’t care about titles.
He didn’t sell dogs to support himself.




HAHA sounds like a bad Ninja movie

[Officially Retired]

Quote Originally Posted by GUNNY View Post
I guess it’s a matter of taste when it comes to how KZB’s line is valued.
There will not be enough recognition or accolades for some to respect what he was accomplished.
He did his thing high on a hill, for his own edification, to the standards he was taught.
He didn’t care about titles.
He didn’t sell dogs to support himself.

HAHA sounds like a bad Ninja movie

My thoughts exactly.

The truth is, any line is valued "to others" only insofar as it has benefited others (or if what it has accomplished sets it apart from most).

If you keep your dogs to yourself, do nothing with them, allow others to do nothing with them (and/or they're not good enough to do anything with), then OF COURSE they won't be valued by others ... why should they be?

As far as "what KZB has accomplished," the same logic holds.
Anyone can "live on a hill," breed dogs, not let them out, not care about titles/accolades, etc.
But don't call this an "accomplishment." Label it as it is: doing nothing with one's dogs.

Jack

PS: Again, I would love to see 10-20 dogs like Hobo Jack, plus a boatload of winners, and hear about ACTUAL accomplishments; that would be something worth writing about.

[bullyson]

There is a guy in Oxnard Ca that has a son i believe of Hobo Jack bred to a Coca Cola bitch that would probably breed him to a worthy bitch. Contact me at jjespinoza1421@yahoo.com and i'll try to help you contact him if your still interested....

[Officially Retired]

There is a guy in Oxnard Ca that has a son i believe of Hobo Jack bred to a Coca Cola bitch that would probably breed him to a worthy bitch. Contact me at jjespinoza1421@yahoo.com and i'll try to help you contact him if your still interested....

You be interested in seeing a photo + pedigree of this dog.

Hobo Jack is a specimen.

[Mr_VIP]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=15596

Malucho is putting some good ones on the ground. He is consistently throwing dogs that are extremely game, smart, and know how to finish.

[ceasar]

Sitting at home on workman's comp with a busted knee. Figured I would look through some old threads and stumbled upon this one. Damn! Ole Jack went H.A.M like a mutha on this one Lol.