Inbred or Not?

[AmericanDogMan]

Try looking again at 10-generations






I would first look at ANY pedigree 10+ generations-deep, minimum, before discussing what the coefficient is

Then I would answer you a 42+% inbred dog is highly-inbred, as the article states.






And you got it.

Your mistake was looking at a 4-generation pedigree to discuss "depth" ...

Typically, a WIC search spans 10-15 generations in order to have any meaning

Jack

Thanks Jack duly noted

It only took one click to see it with the 10 generation

[evolutionkennels]

I beg to differ. I dont think 22% is inbred at all. I'd say line bred for sure. MY OPINION

http://www.machobuck.com/Bates'%20Susie.htm

By: Carver's Lasso
Ex: Carver's Judy

Inbreeding Coefficient: 22.0524% based on 19 generations.
171 different animals found in 19 generations.
Data is unavailable on 1046686 ancestors in all 19 generations,
therefore ancestry is -1% known.

* - Missing one or both parent names

50.000% Carver's Judy
( Dam's Side: 1 g1 )
50.000% Carver's Lasso
( Sire's Side: 1 g1 )
43.750% Ch. Tudor's Dibo ROM
( Sire's Side: 1 g2, 1 g4 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
37.500% Hanson's Amber Girl
( Sire's Side: 1 g3 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g2 )
37.500% Cannon's Black Shine
( Sire's Side: 1 g3 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g2 )
25.000% Carver's Black Widow ROM
( Sire's Side: 1 g2 )
21.875% Heinzel's Bambi
( Sire's Side: 1 g3, 1 g5 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g4 )
21.875% Hubbard's Bounce
( Sire's Side: 1 g3, 1 g5 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g4 )
18.750% William's Bucky Mack
( Sire's Side: 1 g4 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
18.750% William's Sarge
( Sire's Side: 1 g4 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
18.750% William's Shine
( Sire's Side: 1 g4 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g3 )
16.406% Hubbard's Gimp
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 3 g6, 2 g8 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g5, 2 g7 )
13.770% William's Cyclone
( Sire's Side: 3 g7, 4 g8, 3 g9, 1 g10 )
( Dam's Side: 3 g6, 4 g7, 3 g8, 1 g9 )
13.672% Hubbard's Lena
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 2 g6, 1 g8 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g5, 1 g7 )
11.279% Tudor's Duce
( Sire's Side: 1 g7, 4 g8, 5 g9, 4 g10, 1 g11 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g6, 4 g7, 5 g8, 4 g9, 1 g10 )
10.938% Ritcheson's Spike
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 1 g6 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g5 )
10.938% Ritcheson's Spotty
( Sire's Side: 1 g4, 1 g6 )
( Dam's Side: 1 g5 )

[Officially Retired]

I beg to differ. I dont think 22% is inbred at all. I'd say line bred for sure. MY OPINION

Wow, that's an eye sore with all that bold, big text

If you don't believe that a son of Black Widow bred back to Black Widow's sister is an inbreeding, then we will just have to disagree.

FYI, it is really not even a matter of debate that breeding an aunt to a nephew is an inbreeding. It simply is.

Now, whether or not it's a "severe" inbreeding is a matter of opinion (I don't think it's too heavy of an inbreeding myself).

But, regardless of whether whatever you calculated it on is right at 22%, or whether our 42% calculation is correct, this is immaterial to the fact that an aunt/nephew breeding is an inbreeding.

Jack

[SteelyDan]

What other evidence do you have to that fact since the coefficient is immaterial?

[EWO]

I always preface these posts with "I am not a breeder", so with that said, for me breeding is far more art than science. I like pedigrees as much as the next guy, I always take a glance at the coefficient as well, but I have always wondered if there is any real connection between a higher coefficient and a higher percentage of success. EWO

[evolutionkennels]

Wow, that's an eye sore with all that bold, big text

If you don't believe that a son of Black Widow bred back to Black Widow's sister is an inbreeding, then we will just have to disagree.

FYI, it is really not even a matter of debate that breeding an aunt to a nephew is an inbreeding. It simply is.

Now, whether or not it's a "severe" inbreeding is a matter of opinion (I don't think it's too heavy of an inbreeding myself).

But, regardless of whether whatever you calculated it on is right at 22%, or whether our 42% calculation is correct, this is immaterial to the fact that an aunt/nephew breeding is an inbreeding.

Jack

Sorry about the large caps. I think it has enough outs. Also.. I saw two or 3 different peds for some of the dogs as I was researching 7 and 8 generation. Although the further away the less significance. Victor at Southern kennels was always certain that uncle to niece or vise versa was the best way to linebreed

[Officially Retired]

What other evidence do you have to that fact since the coefficient is immaterial?

I never said the coefficient is immaterial. The coefficient determines HOW inbred a dog is, not "yes or no" if it's inbred.

However, the coefficient is somewhat theoretical, for the reasons already stated as clearly as can be stated in this article. One's comprehension, however, is another matter.

The only other "evidence" I have are the very definitions of inbreeding.
Marrying someone unrelated to you is not inbreeding.
Marrying someone related to you, depending on how close, can be inbreeding.
I have already stated the direct kinds of inbreeding there are, so if you have trouble "getting" this, then I can't help you any further.
If you have trouble seeing that Lasso was bred to his aunt, then I can't help you any further here either.

Tell you what, if you have trouble understanding what I have already put here, then just go announce that you are marrying your aunt and get back to me with the results.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Sorry about the large caps. I think it has enough outs. Also.. I saw two or 3 different peds for some of the dogs as I was researching 7 and 8 generation. Although the further away the less significance. Victor at Southern kennels was always certain that uncle to niece or vise versa was the best way to linebreed

Nephew/aunt is how Hardcore produced his first, and only, Grand Champion, Nine Milli.

And when RTK bred Mayday's aunt Polly to Mayday, that inbreeding produced Gr Ch Haunch and Ch May May.

.

[Officially Retired]

I always preface these posts with "I am not a breeder", so with that said, for me breeding is far more art than science. I like pedigrees as much as the next guy, I always take a glance at the coefficient as well, but I have always wondered if there is any real connection between a higher coefficient and a higher percentage of success. EWO

IMO, breeding is both art and science.

SCIENCE: You have to know what you're looking at in a pedigree. You have to know the best breeding patterns to reliably and consistently "get what you want" from your dogs.
ART: You have to get a feel for your dogs. You have to have a good eye and select the right dogs to put into the breeding patterns.

Regarding the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient, I personally don't think a higher coefficient necessarily means anything at all.
This thread is getting sidetracked on the WIC, rather than just the ability to "see" the relatedness in a pedigree.

I.e., most people can clearly see a mother/son inbreeding, because the mama's name is the same, but they're blind to a nephew/aunt inbreeding because the bitch name changes (even though the mama and aunt have the same pedigree).

In other words, if Lasso was bred back to his mama, Black Widow, everyone could see this and agree it's an inbreeding;

But when Lasso is bred back to Black Widow's sister, not as many people can see this is still an inbreeding, yet Black Widow/Judy have the same pedigree.

Jack

[Pit Bull Committed]

IMO, breeding is both art and science.

SCIENCE: You have to know what you're looking at in a pedigree. You have to know the best breeding patterns to reliably and consistently "get what you want" from your dogs.
ART: You have to get a feel for your dogs. You have to have a good eye and select the right dogs to put into the breeding patterns.

Regarding the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient, I personally don't think a higher coefficient necessarily means anything at all.
This thread is getting sidetracked on the WIC, rather than just the ability to "see" the relatedness in a pedigree.

I.e., most people can clearly see a mother/son inbreeding, because the mama's name is the same, but they're blind to a nephew/aunt inbreeding because the bitch name changes (even though the mama and aunt have the same pedigree).

In other words, if Lasso was bred back to his mama, Black Widow, everyone could see this and agree it's an inbreeding;

But when Lasso is bred back to Black Widow's sister, not as many people can see this is still an inbreeding, yet Black Widow/Judy have the same pedigree.

Jack