Inbred or Not?

[Officially Retired]

Bates' Susie (Bolio's granddam)

Yes or no ... no comments; just vote.

We'll keep it anonymous.

Let's see how many people here know how to read a pedigree

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Only 6 votes so far ... surely everyone isn't that timid

It's anonymous, so just vote

[Officially Retired]

Okay, 76% of you got it right, Bates' Susie is an inbred (nephew/aunt) breeding.

His sire, Carver's Lasso, was off of Dibo bred to his granddaughter, Black Widow ... and Lasso was then bred to his aunt (Black Widow's sister) Carver's Judy.

Those people who voted "no" need to slow down and take a look at the relationships a bit more closely.

I have heard it said, "The old time breeders didn't inbreed that much," and the people who say that simply don't know how to read pedigrees either.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Jack

[SGC]

Good topic... I think most folks look at the more obvious father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister breedings as typical of inbreeding.

[SteelyDan]

Alot of folks draw lines in the sand over inbreeding vs line breeding. I can see how You'd draw the line at the nuclear family to classify it as inbreeding. Some draw it deeper into the extended family.

I think to determine what it is the flow of the breedings behind those dogs should be taken into account. I wouldn't call an aunt to nephew breeding within a scatterbred pool of dogs inbreeding. You'd still be lining things out. What are you really tightening up on in such a scenario?

The bates' Susie dog was lined out a bit, then it was brought back together to culminate in her being produced i.I believe the formula behind her of line breeding lent to her being inbred more so than just it being an aunt nephew. We do tons of 1st n 2nd cousin and aunt uncle and nice nephew and great uncle breedings etc...we never really consider it inbreeding unless its from the nuclear family. All the dogs on the yard are at least 2nd cousins anyway.

[AmericanDogMan]

Question?

Wright's coefficient on pedigree is 28.125%

You state the following?
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Like any tool, the Wright’s Inbreeding Coefficient has very good practical use, but it should not be misused or misunderstood. Two dogs out of the same litter may share the same theoretical WIC “on paper” ... but IN THE REAL WORLD one dog may happen to carry with it a substantially-greater “pull” from one side of its pedigree than its littermate brother or sister. For instance, Laguna Sunrise and Jezebel were littermates out of the same litter of Poncho to Screamer. Therefore, “on paper” these two sisters have “an identical” WIC. However, the physical reality is Laguna Sunrise carries a much greater “Hollingsworth” (or even Red Baby) GENETIC PULL AND EXPRESSION than did her sister Jezebel, who carried a much stronger “Poncho” pull in her actual physical expression and characteristics. So, again, use the Wright’s Inbreeding Coefficient as a tool, but do not be blinded by this tool; use your eyes in conjunction with it.

In closing, as a general rule, a coefficient of 10% (or less) is a scatter-bred dog (or possibly a 100% straight outcross), where there is little relatedness in common amongst the entirety of BOTH parents’ ancestries. A 10%-20% WIC is a somewhat linebred dog. Coefficients of 20%-35% are getting into some solid linebreeding in the genetic background, and anything with over a 35% WIC. is an intensely inbred/linebred animal.
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Just a question. I would read it as inbred or intensely line bred. But how do you reconcile it with the coefficient.
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I did read the whole article. I am however asking about a specific reasoning in this case

[Officially Retired]

Inbreeding =

Brother/Sister
Father/Daughter
Mother/Son
Aunt/Nephew
Uncle/Niece
Cousin/Cousin

This is an Aunt/Nephew breeding (breeding a dog to his mother's sister), and it absolutely is an inbreeding.

If Lasso was bred back to his mother, Black Widow, everyone on earth would agree (and see) it's an inbred dog ... but Carver bred him to his mother's sister, and normally 3/4 of the people "can't see it" ...

At least here, 3/4 of the people did see it ... Judy = Black Widow's sister

Jack

[SteelyDan]

So Jack..... A half brother sister breeding isn't inbreeding?

[Officially Retired]

Yes, forgot that one.

[Officially Retired]

Question?
Wright's coefficient on pedigree is 28.125%

Try looking again at 10-generations

Just a question. I would read it as inbred or intensely line bred. But how do you reconcile it with the coefficient.
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I would first look at ANY pedigree 10+ generations-deep, minimum, before discussing what the coefficient is

Then I would answer you a 42+% inbred dog is highly-inbred, as the article states.

I did read the whole article. I am however asking about a specific reasoning in this case

And you got it.

Your mistake was looking at a 4-generation pedigree to discuss "depth" ...

Typically, a WIC search spans 10-15 generations in order to have any meaning

Jack