Great dog with no papers

[HOGBIZ]

Ahh, but who's to say how a dog is bred is actually how it is bred? To know for certian means you would have actuallty witnessed the breeding of said dog as well as the breeding of the parents, as well as the parents of those.

Poncho for one is said to be off Hammer, but as is told, there are 2 different breedings behind Hammer. Now, I don't run Poncho dogs, but with that said, you don't run Hammer dogs either Jack, you run your line, Poncho dogs.

In short, you built your line off what you saw in Poncho, not Hammer. Sure, you know how you were told Hammer and Trinx were bred, believed what you were told, but what if it was not so? Whould you have changed your breeding program, or do you think your program would have done what it did simply breeding off of Poncho?

Just picking brains.

Gr ch 35.... I do not believe he was bred.. For not having papers/unknown ped...
I wouldn't bred the dog, any dog with out knowing, its history/ped... Jmho

Gr Ch 35 was bred ... and he never produced anything worth a hoot ...

How a dog is bred matters ...

If I knew (and liked) how the dog was bred, but just didn't have papers, I would breed him no problem.

If I did not know how he was bred at all, I would treat the dog kindly and give him the comfortable retirement he deserves ... but I sure wouldn't breed him to my best bitches.

Jack


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[FACE203]

I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

[HOGBIZ]

Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?

I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

[AL Clown]

I would have to side with HOGBIZ, as I have done this before although the dog produced crap I would still try again if said dog was of high caliber.

The dog I bred caught 4 hogs, and took a real game chin crawling beating from a much better hog.

[FACE203]

Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?

I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

I guess its all how you look at it...
You say try to always recreate the past... How can you if you don't know?

My first hound, was from an unkown background. Moms was a good house dog, the dad was said to be from dibo(don't laugh to hard lol) she was a good dog in the bush league and her brother. I bred her to a game dog, didn't get squat... lol so I too have been down that road and would not go that route again... That's just me... I don't have time or money to waste on, what may become of the unknown.. You fellas take it easy...

[Officially Retired]

Ahh, but who's to say how a dog is bred is actually how it is bred? To know for certian means you would have actuallty witnessed the breeding of said dog as well as the breeding of the parents, as well as the parents of those.
Poncho for one is said to be off Hammer, but as is told, there are 2 different breedings behind Hammer. Now, I don't run Poncho dogs, but with that said, you don't run Hammer dogs either Jack, you run your line, Poncho dogs.
In short, you built your line off what you saw in Poncho, not Hammer. Sure, you know how you were told Hammer and Trinx were bred, believed what you were told, but what if it was not so? Whould you have changed your breeding program, or do you think your program would have done what it did simply breeding off of Poncho?
Just picking brains.

You're right and you're wrong in your thinking.

1: You're right in your thinking that Hammer may not have been bred the way I thought he was when I bred to him, which (sometimes) goes to show it doesn't matter how a dog is bred;

2) You're wrong in your thinking, because I built what I have off of Poncho (not because of Hammer) ... and not even because Poncho was "good" ... I built my yard around Poncho because he proved to be an exceptionally-prepotent stud dog. At the time, most of my pups off of "heavy Bolio" breedings (and even off Truman) were quitting. But Poncho came out of an all-game litter ... and damned near every pup he threw was a badass (or very game dog), and this is the reason I "dropped anchor" with Poncho: his prepotency.

The truth is, very few dogs are actually PREPOTENT, meaning they have the ability to throw super dogs regardless of how you breed them ... and that includes "good dogs" ... because even most "good dogs" simply can't produce.

Furthermore, I also hadn't really set a family back then, I was in the process of finding out "what's what" with the dogs I had BOUGHT, or with my FIRST few breedings. It was only when I saw how game Poncho was when he lost, and then how consistently he was producing when I bred to him, that I started funneling everything I had through Poncho. Unfortunately, I was in the city back then, so I didn't have much room, and so hardly made any breedings with him ... compared to what I could have done with him, say 6 years ago, when I had 40+ bitches, not 3-4 bitches.




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I would have to side with HOGBIZ, as I have done this before although the dog produced crap I would still try again if said dog was of high caliber.
The dog I bred caught 4 hogs, and took a real game chin crawling beating from a much better hog.

And that's exactly why I wouldn't bother breeding to some "good dog" with a totally-unknown pedigree is because most dogs are NOT prepotent, and can't produce worth a lick, even if they're good dogs themselves.

It is hard enough to get off the ground as a breeder, using good dogs that you know how they're bred (or at least some general idea), let alone if you have no idea how they're bred at all, nor what anything behind them is bred.

At least with Poncho, whether Hammer was really off of Ruben or BBB makes no difference, as BOTH were prepotent dogs that produced, and Ch Hammer wasn't just "a good dog," he was also out of an all-game litter ... otherwise I wouldn't have bred to him at all.

Jack


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HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????

[Officially Retired]

HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????

Interesting distinction.

I would be more willing to try a good, unknown female out over a male -- because it doesn't hurt if she can't produce.

In other words, in the original scenario, the question was should I waste one of my good female's heat cycles on an "unknown-bred male" (which I would NOT do) ... but tossing a load of semen from my excellent stud into an "unknown bitch" is altogether different, because I have not committed so much to the unknown dog. In other words, I can use my good dog's semen on one of my well-known bitches anytime ... the next day if I want ... whereas when I commit one of my bitch's heat cycles to an unknown male, I can't use her again for at least another 8 months (maybe a year or more).

This is why you could call up any dogman and breed your done-nothing bitch to his Grand Champion Stud: it's nothing to him to lose a little semen out of his stud; he can use him again tomorrow.

But if you called and asked to borrow his best brood bitch to breed to your done-nothing stud, he will say "NO!", because nobody is going to waste a heat cycle of their best bitch on anything they don't know and want real bad.

The level of commitment is simply too great, with using a key female on an unknown male, whereas there is zero commitment using a key male on an unknown female, because you can immediately use the key stud's semen again.

Jack

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[Dre21]

HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????

Interesting distinction.

I would be more willing to try a good, unknown female out over a male -- because it doesn't hurt if she can't produce.

In other words, in the original scenario, the question was should I waste one of my good female's heat cycles on an "unknown-bred male" (which I would NOT do) ... but tossing a load of semen from my excellent stud into an "unknown bitch" is altogether different, because I have not committed so much to the unknown dog. In other words, I can use my good dog's semen on one of my well-known bitches anytime ... the next day if I want ... whereas when I commit one of my bitch's heat cycles to an unknown male, I can't use her again for at least another 8 months (maybe a year or more).

This is why you could call up any dogman and breed your done-nothing bitch to his Grand Champion Stud: it's nothing to him to lose a little semen out of his stud; he can use him again tomorrow.

But if you called and asked to borrow his best brood bitch to breed to your done-nothing stud, he will say "NO!", because nobody is going to waste a heat cycle of their best bitch on anything they don't know and want real bad.

[The level of commitment is simply too great], with using a key female on an unknown male, [commitment using a key male on an unknown femalewhereas there is zero , because you can immediately use the key stud's semen again.]

Jack

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SUCH IS LIFE MY FRIEND, SUCH IS LIFE !!!!!

[HOGBIZ]

Now this is a good question with a well thought out answer from CJ.

The origional question, "Just curious..... If you had a great dog that did great in competiton for you more than once, but had no papers... what would you do with the dog. ".

Left it open ended and most who answered deffered to the "Great Dog" being a male.

Good stuff here.

HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????