I thought Jack always said the point of inbreeding was to take away the genetic diversity and to single out specific dogs or litter of dogs.
I thought Jack always said the point of inbreeding was to take away the genetic diversity and to single out specific dogs or litter of dogs.
it is but he was wrong to a point. when you take away genetic diversity to much that is what causes low fertility, low birth rate. linebreeding is great to bring out prepotency in your line and to fix traits. but while it will fix good traits it will lock in bad ones as well. like i said earlier if the defect it locks in is a simple recessive trait then it can easily be removed but if the defect is polygenic then not so much. when you are breeding you can only work with the genes that are there and line breeding limits those genes
example say you are breeding your line and out comes a dog like chinaman and you start to line breed to get another chinaman this is great and you will get some good dogs but none of them can be genetically better than chinaman because those are the genes you are working with. now when you outcross you bring in new genes to the mix and they will line up in different ways and you can make the genes you had better than chinaman. What some people do though is either line breed to much or outcross to much neither is good for the dogs you need a happy medium
Mr. Bill Haast.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/us/18haast.html
Not trying to ruin this great thread but here is something to think about.
seen folks linebred and inbreed with success and do the same and get shit. Seen folks never linebreed and always outcross have success and seen others fail. It was always more about selection than anything else.
This is true. Selection is the difference. If you breed two exceptional dogs that in turn throw exceptional dogs at a very high percentage and out of 30 great dogs your favorite one happens to be a ten minute cur, well, when you breed that cur you will get a lot of good dogs because everything in and around him are great dogs.
In the next few breedings you center the program around the cur the percentages will fall. In time there will be a six generation pedigree chock full of dogs that should have performed and produced and did not, that is the result of selection.
Selection cuts both ways. If dogs are selected for the wrong reasons or the ones who are selected are sub par, then that selection process will have some negative affects.
Look at college football and a lot in the NFL. The spread offenses made defenses stop playing the majority of the time between the hash marks and now they must play from side line to side line. The ultimate grade is placed on speed. Now every body is bigger, faster and stronger because that is what the coaches are selecting. Freak athletes. Along the way the kids no longer learn how to tackle.
In dogs that would be like selecting the hardest biters over and over, and in time you will have a yard full of freak mouthed dogs. They won't scratch but they sure will bite.
It is all about selection. Selection can only come from experience within a family of dogs and experience in recognizing not only like traits in a family but traits that have been repeatable.
Selection also nixes paper breeding dogs vs. trait breeding as well.
EWO
i believe you but i would like to see what they consider outcrosses what some consider an outcross is really a family breeding. and you have to remember a lot of these lines are related. they may not have common ancestors in the first four generations but if you go back past that they are actually quite related.Originally Posted by CrazyRed
for example take the nigger toby dog on paper looks like a complete outcross but if you believe the way eli is bred ( which i dont for a second) then eli and zebo are quite related just down through different families of dibo.
also what do you consider successfull because say i continually outcross and come up with one or two quality dogs that just is not what i would consider good. now if gthere were 2 quality dogs out of 4 total i would change my mind but say 2 out of 7 is a different story
Also like EWO said selection is everything no matter which way you breed. personally i really dont care which way people breed or even what anyone other than me is doing. this is just the way i am i dont worry about what the next man is doing unless it effects me directly
perfectly said EWO. that is one thing i have seen and read once you stop selecting working dogs you will lose those working traits it is just inevitable
I am not saying it can not happen but i will say i have never seen a successful program based on continuous outcrossing. now dont get me wrong i am not saying that you need to inbreed the shit out of these dogs i am saying the exact opposite. But i am saying that line breeding which when you get down to it is inbreeding and only animal breeders differentiate between the two is a successful tool when you are trying to lock in traits.
another form of breeding that some have tried is assortative breeding which is breeding like traits to like traits regardless of relation. this can work but again it can only take you so far say for instance you have a stifle dog and breed him to another stifle dog yes they have the same trait but it was not the same combination of genes that created it.
Breeding is called an art for a reason because it is part science and part intuition. Like EWO said half the battle is having the experience to know which animals to select to create the next generation.
i just came across this and i think it fits in with this thread
While there exists no absolute set of rules to guarantee your breeding program is successful, there are
general rules to play by. You should always thoroughly understand the goals you are trying to attain. You
should understand as much as possible the genetic mechanisms underlying the traits you want to select for.
And you should understand that there is, and there will always be, a lot of luck. You cannot change the rules,
but you can stack the deck in your favor.
Good quote. Where is it from?
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