redboy dogs

[Officially Retired]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.

Mmmm, I am not sure I can agree with that.

People forget how many Bolio-type dogs there are out there winning.

The Boyle's line alone, all based on a son of BBB out of a daughter of Red Baby, could probably go head-to-head with the RBJ dogs of that era, as far as Champions/wins, ROMs etc. By itself.

Then if you add the Buck dogs, my dogs, the Tonka dogs, etc. of the 90s/2000s ... let alone all the RBJ crosses using the Buck/Hollingsworth Bolio/Tombstone blood as a catalyst (or a mainstay) ... while trying not to forget almost every single significant Garner's Chinaman dog has a heavy Bolio/Hollingsworth and/or Payne/Crum-bred Bolio/Tombstone influence in there ... it all starts to look a bit overwhelming.

Regardless of who has "the most," it was definitely at the forefront or thereabouts.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Not to belabor the point. But I found a good read from Mr. Carl Mims himself where he calls out the Bolio/Tombstone the number one producing line. Circa 1986

Good read below

He states name's like:

Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.). A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.
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The dog' he mention's are name's behind

Hollingsworth bull
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=181

and

Hollingsworth Dolly
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=171

and Gr Ch Machobuck DOY 2004
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=327

And

And Gr Ch Awesome Beast Doy 2003
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=4545

And the best of the Boyle's line

And further to the point these dogs were the secret sauce in
DOY 2002 Latin Force Barracuda
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=372
With him being a heavy Yellow dog ... Matter fact most of the Redboy found in the above mentioned specimens were Yellow dog's

I am a great fan of Mims' Redboy dogs and the stuff from K. Marlowe coming thru Judge's Buck

But I must admit my favorite as well is Tombstone/Bolio and their winning Gr Ch/ Ch children.

Below is the full article
----

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986
Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world.
Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses.
It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal.
One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him.
I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some.
If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake.
If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes.
I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith".

The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM),
Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM), "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and
Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't.
A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/ "Indian Bolio" (ROM). Some of the top producers of this line are: Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr." (produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) Crossed over into Ch. "Jocko" blood has produced some great ones like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM) This is a line that has been bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh. "Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) This line is known for it's gameness. If all of "Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's "Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter "Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California. His brother sired 2 Champions before his death. "Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the Journal, and has been bred quite a bit. This line is great breeding stock.
These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.
TIP!! An example of a line that people are taking a chance on is GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died. GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.

It's nice to read the musings / research of some of the old-timers. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Jack

[waccamaw]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.

In the late 80,s and all through the 90's the RBJ dogs had the most wins in the SDJ .mainly the yellow dogs .

[blood brothers]

Hooker red did not quit....it was a draw between the two

[AmericanDogMan]

It's nice to read the musings / research of some of the old-timers. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Jack

Thank you too Jack. This thread has been fun to read as well. It has shined a light on an important point, kind of like dogging 101.

The bottom line take away is that, it's more important to deal with reputable breeder's from a specific strain of a family of dog's; than to just chase after a bloodline.

Happy hunting friends
-

[Officially Retired]

In the late 80,s and all through the 90's the RBJ dogs had the most wins in the SDJ .mainly the yellow dogs .

I am sure they are up there, possibly at the top, but unquestionably "up there" ... and this is where the beauty of this database comes in ... we have the Statistics Generator to find out the facts

So I am going to run it and get back here with the results

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Mmmm, I am not sure I can agree with that.

People forget how many Bolio-type dogs there are out there winning.

The Boyle's line alone, all based on a son of BBB out of a daughter of Red Baby, could probably go head-to-head with the RBJ dogs of that era, as far as Champions/wins, ROMs etc. By itself.

Then if you add the Buck dogs, my dogs, the Tonka dogs, etc. of the 90s/2000s ... let alone all the RBJ crosses using the Buck/Hollingsworth Bolio/Tombstone blood as a catalyst (or a mainstay) ... while trying not to forget almost every single significant Garner's Chinaman dog has a heavy Bolio/Hollingsworth and/or Payne/Crum-bred Bolio/Tombstone influence in there ... it all starts to look a bit overwhelming.

Regardless of who has "the most," it was definitely at the forefront or thereabouts.

Jack

I didn't forget about the Bolio type dogs out there, but that's also why I said through some of the 90s. During the mid-late 90s, the Boyles line of dogs, especially bred from WCC, were all over the SDJ winning left and right. Champions, Grand Champions, ROM dogs, etc. They had a long, solid run of winning just as the Redboy/Jocko dogs did from the mid-late 80s through the early part of the 90s to probably the mid 90s.

I didn't comment so much on the later 90s or the 2000s as I simply don't remember one batch of dogs clearly standing out like in previous periods. I was only commenting on certain periods not over an entire three decade span.

[Officially Retired]

Thank you too Jack. This thread has been fun to read as well. It has shined a light on an important point, kind of like dogging 101.
The bottom line take away is that, it's more important to deal with reputable breeder's from a specific strain of a family of dog's; than to just chase after a bloodline.
Happy hunting friends
-

Honestly, it has to do with something more important than "reputable" breeders; it has to do with breeders who really understand what gameness means

There are plenty of breeders who will be honest, with both pedigrees and paperwork, but who still are selling something "other than" truly game dogs ... in fact, most breeders are in this category.

Also, there are plenty of breeders who sell dogs "that can win" ... but they're still not bloodlines that almost invariably lose "dead game" when they do lose ... their dogs just quit like everything else.

Yes, we've all bred dogs that have quit ... but when MOST of your losses are quits, then you're not breeding a game line of dogs IMO.

And, like I said on Page 3, most of these Redboy dogs are quitting when they lose. Almost invariably, they are not showing as game as the Hollingsworth dogs were. In fact, when the pure Hollingsworth dog Dr. Savage faced the pure RBJ dog Latin Boys' Clorox ... it again was another 2+ hour fight ... but, again, the Hollingsworth dog won, and never stopped scratching, while the other finally had enough and did stop scratching. That has just been my consistent experience.

They are simply not as game a line of dogs, on average. Again, this exact same opinion occurred from one of the foundational Redboy breeders 20 years ago, when his pure Hollingsworth dogs were stopping his pure Redboy dogs. This same scenario has repeatedly been true when these dogs have faced mine. The result is the same literally almost every time. There is no "50-50 split" ... it's those dogs ultimately have a stopping point and lose on the scratch line ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I didn't forget about the Bolio type dogs out there, but that's also why I said through some of the 90s. During the mid-late 90s, the Boyles line of dogs, especially bred from WCC, were all over the SDJ winning left and right. Champions, Grand Champions, ROM dogs, etc. They had a long, solid run of winning just as the Redboy/Jocko dogs did from the mid-late 80s through the early part of the 90s to probably the mid 90s.
I didn't comment so much on the later 90s or the 2000s as I simply don't remember one batch of dogs clearly standing out like in previous periods. I was only commenting on certain periods not over an entire three decade span.

Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws, who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky, etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws, who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky, etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.