Coccidiosis-Giardia

[No Quarter Kennel]

I'd love to have Jack get in on this one.

I've got a dandy litter of 6 pups. One just left to her new home Saturday. I've got one little female that my vet (damn good vet btw) said has a giardia looking protozoa in her. Not a problem. Hitting her with the Albon and I expect her to be just fine. I did contact the new owner of the pup that left Sat. to let him know to keep an eye on her, but here's my question.

1. I suspect the other 4 pups I have are plenty susceptible to this since they've been kenneled together - Is this assumption correct?

2. More importantly, can I just do a preventative Albon treatment on the other four to ensure they'll be ok, or should I watch to see if I see anything concerning?

Vet said this is most common for those who wash out and hose out kennels several times a day. That is not the case here. They were in an above ground pen until 5 weeks and have been in a larger, chainlink kennel on concrete since.

Is there anything I could have done preventatively to cut the odds of this down?

I am in the middle of relocating and have plans to build an 8x8 above ground that I can keep them in for a longer period of time, but that's down the road.

Thanks!

[Officially Retired]

I'd love to have Jack get in on this one.
I've got a dandy litter of 6 pups. One just left to her new home Saturday. I've got one little female that my vet (damn good vet btw) said has a giardia looking protozoa in her. Not a problem. Hitting her with the Albon and I expect her to be just fine. I did contact the new owner of the pup that left Sat. to let him know to keep an eye on her, but here's my question.

Hello good sir

Two things to say on this one: 1) I have a great article on this very subject already posted, and 2) if Giardia is the culprit, you're using the wrong medicine to treat; Albon is for coccidia; metronidazole/fenbendazole are what to use for Giardia

1. I suspect the other 4 pups I have are plenty susceptible to this since they've been kenneled together - Is this assumption correct?
2. More importantly, can I just do a preventative Albon treatment on the other four to ensure they'll be ok, or should I watch to see if I see anything concerning?

Yes to both questions: I would definitely be treating the whole litter, and yes again it will prevent/treat the others who (though maybe not 'symptomatic') in all probability have already been exposed.

Vet said this is most common for those who wash out and hose out kennels several times a day. That is not the case here. They were in an above ground pen until 5 weeks and have been in a larger, chainlink kennel on concrete since.

You can bleach the bejesus out of your kennels, but at the end of the day (since you're dealing with microscopic organisms) there is no getting every little nook & cranny, so it is better just to have the meds onhand.

Is there anything I could have done preventatively to cut the odds of this down?
I am in the middle of relocating and have plans to build an 8x8 above ground that I can keep them in for a longer period of time, but that's down the road.
Thanks!

Not really.

Once either Giardia (or, especially, Coccidia) take hold, YOU HAVE IT on your yard. Giardia is a bit easier to deal with, since it is found in stagnant water for the most part. So maybe it rained and you let the water sit for awhile, I don't know, but Coccidia is almost impossible to be rid of, once you get it, and it is simply a matter of making sure you have the drugs onhand to deal with it, once you get it. The reason is, like babesia, you can't really kill the coccidia, you just put it into remission, so you probably have several adults shedding the oocysts in their feces on your yard right now, even though they are healthy and feeling fine.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack, I really appreciate your reply. Tons of help.For you to take the time to go into detail and address my situation is greatly appreciated.

For everyone's benefit, I want to bounce some things off of you regarding this stuff.

What I'm being told, is that Giardia and Coccidiosis are both protozoa and are from the same "family", so to speak, so therefore, that is why the Albon will cover me for both. Where you at on this? I looked in my Merk Man. and it told me plenty about coxy, but I didn't know where to start with the Giardia as there was nothing to lead me to canine specific Giardia.

It also mentioned, for coxy, to NOT feed raw meat! I'm curious as to why.

Finally, my original pup that contracted this, hasn't eaten in a full 36 hours now. I'm keep her hydrated with fluids under the skin, but she is still not interested in eating. Any ideas how to get her some nutrition down would be great.

Thank you!

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack

I have read your entire article on coccidia and giardia. DAMN THAT'S VALUABLE INFO! Thank you so much for putting that together.

I'm headed to my vet right now to "fill him in" and get his take on all of this......let me rephrase, I'm going to fill him in and then tell him to give me the proper meds so I can knock this shit out of this one pup. Not eating for a day and a half ain't cuttin it.

THANKS

[Officially Retired]

Jack, I really appreciate your reply. Tons of help.For you to take the time to go into detail and address my situation is greatly appreciated.

My pleasure amigo

For everyone's benefit, I want to bounce some things off of you regarding this stuff.
What I'm being told, is that Giardia and Coccidiosis are both protozoa and are from the same "family", so to speak, so therefore, that is why the Albon will cover me for both. Where you at on this? I looked in my Merk Man. and it told me plenty about coxy, but I didn't know where to start with the Giardia as there was nothing to lead me to canine specific Giardia.

Whoever told you this is both ignorant and knowledgeable at the same time.

He or she is right that Coccidia and Giardia are both protozoan parasites (as my article states), but this does NOT mean the same drugs work on both! For that matter, Babesia, Leishmanaiasis, and Malaria are ALL protozoa parasites as well, but each needs drastically-different meds to treat (although there is some overlap with malaria and babesia). Same with different kinds of bacteria. Just because staph infections and pseudomonas are both "bacteria infections" doesn't mean all you need is "one" antibiotic to treat them (and every other "bacteria" on the face of the earth). The truth is, there are ten dozen different kinds of antibiotic choices, each of which does something slightly different.

So whoever is telling you you can treat "all protozoa infections" with Albon is a bit daft and doesn't really know what he is talking about. Therefore, as far as "where am I" on this issue, again that is clearly stated in my article ... but the information won't help you if you want to follow someone else's misinformation

It also mentioned, for coxy, to NOT feed raw meat! I'm curious as to why.

Because the disease thrives in that environment.

Finally, my original pup that contracted this, hasn't eaten in a full 36 hours now. I'm keep her hydrated with fluids under the skin, but she is still not interested in eating. Any ideas how to get her some nutrition down would be great.
Thank you!

The reason she is not responding amigo, again, is because you're not giving her the right meds to treat her condition. If she has a confirmed case of Giardia, Albon is not going to help her ... any more than it would help a confirmed case of babesia, or malaria, or any other "protozoan" parasite that does NOT get affected by Albon.

Therefore, if you're sure she has Giardia, you are simply treating her with a medicine choice that is not helping her one bit.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

So, would you suggest the TMZ/Flagyl treatment everytime and not mess with the Albon/Panacur?

Seems to me the TMZ/Flagyl mixture is the way to go!

Suggestions!?

[Officially Retired]

I use the TMZ/Flagyl route if I am not really sure what I am dealing with (giardia or coccidia), that way I know I cover both. The TMZ gets coccidia, while the flagyl gets giardia.

However, if I had a confirmed case of Giardia, Flagyl and Panacur (fenbendazole) are what I would use, as they both work on Giardia specifically. It won't hurt to add TMZ, in case you have coccidia too, but the TMZ will do nothing for giardia (and, if you've already been using Albon unsuccessfully, that might be superfluous).

Was there any mention of coccidia also, or just giardia?

[No Quarter Kennel]

This dude is pissing me off Jack. He shows me the slide up on the screen. Shows me a real "squiggly" protozoa. He says, "That there is a protozoa. Probably a giradia type." BUT, then he gives me the Albon and tells me this gets all kinds of coccidia and girardia is a protozoa as well as the coxy so it should get all of it. SO, to be honest, I don't know what the hell I have.

This will work out fine b/c it is a learning experience that I will reference in the past. BUT FUCK! I got a little pup out there, that I think a hell of a lot of, who hasn't eaten in about 40-42 hours. She gags up water as well. I'm doing fluids under the skin to keep her hydrated. SHE IS NOT GETTING BETTER. I see her shrinking and not responding to anything.

Now, she did take a real watery shit in the living room floor about 30 minutes ago. It was brown. Would this be considered an improvement over the pale kakhi colored mucus shit she was having earlier?

Tell me your thoughts.

THANKS

[R2L]

if she wants to eat something feed her some boiled rice and boiled chicken in very small portions. better digestible and easy on the stumic

good luck with the pup

[Officially Retired]

My thoughts are, regardless of the lack of proof-positive ID, the fact remains you're giving Albon and it's not working.

If the primary remedy for coccidia isn't working, then the odds begin to stack in favor of it being giardia, like he guestimated, so giving her flagyl/panacur isn't going to hurt ... and it may just save her life.

So that is what I would make it my business to do, give flagyl and panacur, as quickly as I could do it.

Good luck,

Jack