Inbreeding... When to or when not to.....

[ScratchAndGO]

I would like to get some opinions as to what criteria individuals use to decide when to start breeding strictly in-house. What standards have you set to establish a base line as to how good a dog has to be in order to make the "team". Do they need to be a winner,have a good amount of a certain quality,be good tempered. I am not a veteran to the game nor do I think I have the best dogs but what mine are starting to show me has me fantastically impressed. The problem that I see right away with my being impressed is that I don't know if I am looking for the right characteristics. It goes without saying that there are certain qualities that you better have right out the gate such as...
(In no particular order or amount)
1) Gameness
2) Inteligence
3) Mouth
4) Speed
5) Wind
6)Ability

What are the varying degrees of each?
Are you willing to sacrifice a little of one to get a little more of another?


Those are a good place to start the discussion.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback.
Eric





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[Officially Retired]

The thing about breeding dogs is this: there is no set "criteria" as to why you should/shouldn't inbreed, other than preserving the ability to win.

Clearly, the more positive traits from that list that you preserve, the better your chances are at "preserving something good," while the less elements that you preserve, the less your chances are of getting something worthwhile.

Almost every inbreeding decision I have made has proven to be a worthy effort, but a few have been a waste of time. But so it is with outcrossing: in fact, rather than being "blockbuster" breedings, I would say most outcrosses produce unremarkable dogs, either in performance ability or in producing ability. Still, selective outcrossing can produce something beyond what you have, so it makes sense to selectively experiment on occasion.

However, when linebreeding intelligently, even with the lowest-ability dogs from my efforts, I have still retained gameness for the most part and most of my average dogs can still produce ... while the best linebred dogs from my efforts were as good or better than any cross dog I've ever done.

As for what trait I am willing to sacrifice the most, it is mouth. It's not that I don't "try" for mouth, I just don't place a lot of stock in it. Some of my dogs bite pretty damned hard, to excellent, but most are about average. Yet, the hardest-mouthed dogs I've had have all gotten whipped at some point by the highest-ability dogs I have had, except in rare instances like Stormbringer or Missy who had both.

Therefore, if I can keep gameness, and if I have to make a "trade," I will always trade a helping of mouth for a helping of speed/ability ... as the dog who lands first controls the deal ... and a hard mouth is worthless when it's biting nothing but air ...

Jack


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[Patch]

Thanks for posting this; I've been thinking more and more about this very subject as I am choosing a foundation. When the time comes to see if my boy makes the cut that is. Obviously I won't know what the other pups have done for another couple of years, but to be armed with knowledge on what the line itself is doing and overall health of other dogs will allow me to make more informed decision when choosing from the line or somethine a bit closer.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=399746

[WHISPERS]

Some people say to inbreed on a high percentage litter. Some people say not to do it at all. But these are your dogs and your time and effort. I myself am tossing the idea around of an inbreeding because our foundation stud passed last winter and we didn't really breed him much.he has a few living offspring and we will be trying to concentrate the blood. I'm more interested in a particular cross done with him that I want to inbreed on. None of the dogs of this litter are outstanding. They're still young. But to me I see something in them that makes me wanna go forward with my plan. While our stud was alive we did an inbreeding to his daughter who's dam had a Bolio out. It worked... We have one gyp left of that litter and the cross I speak of brings Bolio thru mayday. My reasoning is double "Cash" on Bolio works. So I wanna double everything and see what happens.
Here's the one that worked..
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1

Here's what I wanna do...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
All opinions are welcome. I wanna hear the why's and why nots

[ScratchAndGO]

I would like to get some opinions as to what criteria individuals use to decide when to start breeding strictly in-house. What standards have you set to establish how good a dog has to be in order to make the "team".

What about if the parents are really phenomenal workers and possess all the ability you seek but their offspring are just average? Would you be willing to make a few concessions and do the breeding (breed the offspring) based on the parents? Or do the offspring need to abundantly possess the qualities you seek?

[ScratchAndGO]

Here is my dude I am going to start evaluating soon. He has a perfect bite,good conformation and a drive out of this world to work.




SCRATCH AND GO'S LOKI

[Officially Retired]

Some people say to inbreed on a high percentage litter. Some people say not to do it at all. But these are your dogs and your time and effort. I myself am tossing the idea around of an inbreeding because our foundation stud passed last winter and we didn't really breed him much.he has a few living offspring and we will be trying to concentrate the blood. I'm more interested in a particular cross done with him that I want to inbreed on. None of the dogs of this litter are outstanding. They're still young. But to me I see something in them that makes me wanna go forward with my plan. While our stud was alive we did an inbreeding to his daughter who's dam had a Bolio out. It worked... We have one gyp left of that litter and the cross I speak of brings Bolio thru mayday. My reasoning is double "Cash" on Bolio works. So I wanna double everything and see what happens.
Here's the one that worked..
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
Here's what I wanna do...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
All opinions are welcome. I wanna hear the why's and why nots

It's unfortunate that some people still shy away from inbreeding on great animals. It's like they've been brainwashed to believe "inbred dogs can't win." I don't know who invented this nonsense idea, but inbreeding on the right dogs is a person's quickest and surest route to consistent success ... while randomly "mixing unrelated dogs together" is a person's assurance of a lifetime of hit-and-miss breeding efforts. If you're skeptical about inbreeding, I encourage you to read the articles on inbreeding that I have stickied up on top of this Sub-Forum.

The thing to keep in mind is that ALL truly great breeders, who stood the test of time, were family breeders. All of them. And regarding the match ability of inbred dogs, as I put on another thread, here is a quick list of some of history's baddest and most famous pit dogs that were either inbred or highly linebred, that were as good (or better!) than any of the "outcrossed" dogs that have ever lived:

• * Gr Ch Tornado (10xW)
  * Gr CH Pedro (9xW, ROM)
  * Ch Rascal (8xW, 1xL POR)
  * Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM)
  * Gr Ch Sir Dog (7xW)
  * Gr Ch Zebo (7xW, ROM)
  * Gr Ch BB Red (6xW)
  * Gr Ch Banjo (5xW, ROM)
  * Gr Ch Happy Jack (5xW)

Sure, there have been plenty of great outcross dogs, there's no doubt ... but there are no outcross dogs that have been any greater (or even as great!) as history's greatest inbred/linebred dogs.

Therefore, if you're really confident in what you have, and it really is what you're wanting "more of," then I say line- and inbreed on it with confidence, because that is the only way you will preserve it, harness it, cultivate it, and be able to perpetuate it indefinitely. I know, because I have done this with my own dogs for going on my 3rd decade ... and they're still exactly how I like them ... and they're still winning

Good luck to you!

Jack

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[ScratchAndGO]

Therefore, if you're really confident in what you have, and it really is what you're wanting "more of," then I say line- and inbreed on it with confidence, because that is the only way you will preserve it, harness it, cultivate it, and be able to perpetuate it indefinitely.

Perfectly said. Agreement to the fullest.

[Officially Retired]

One more interesting thing to say about the subject of inbreeding is I talked to Hardcore Mike back in 2000, who has bred and shown a lot of great dogs, and he told me that he did not believe in breeding his dogs "too tight" ... but what I thought was amusing about his statement was the fact he was unaware that his best bitch ever ... and his only Grand Champion ever (Gr Ch Nine Millie) was the result of an uncle/niece inbreeding (as Redman and Felony were littermates).

Therefore, sometimes people use inbreeding techniques to produce their best dogs, without realizing that they're inbreeding

Jack

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[backcome]

Lots of good info here...take notes!!!!