Running Bulldogs In A Pack

[TFX]

Hello folks! I haven't been around here a whole lot for the last little while, and when I have checked in, I haven't posted much. I have however, been quite active with my dogs as of late. I actually have been amazed at what I have accomplished with the 5 dogs I currently have on the yard.

I have always had intelligent dogs, but we as dog people tend to get stuck in ruts of kennel management that severely limit our dogs' potential. I am no different. We learn early that the responsible thing as bulldog owners is to keep them apart, especially when the marks of even accidental contact could be used to trump up "dogfighting" charges. I kept feeling more and more, that I need to create an environment of healthy social interaction amongst my dogs. What if all of the rules were thrown out the window? I wondered. Then I decided that's exactly what I would do.

One thing I learned a long time ago, is that fight crazy never equated with gameness or talent. My first match dog; who won quick and then lost in over 2:30, was the kind of dog that hung around with Labs, Rottweilers, and Cocker Spaniels.That's the kind of dog experience I wanted to get back to, but how to do it? I knew it had much more to do with me than the dogs. One by one, two by two, I started cutting dogs loose, allowing them to interact in a positive way. There's a lot to it, and this has built up over the last 6 or 7 months, but there's now 5 dogs running together in a pack. I have fully established myself as leader of the pack, and have even introduced dogs both young and old into the existing pack. We have had a couple skirmishes that I verbally resolved within seconds, but no actual fighting.

BFD some may say. Why? What's the purpose? So what? I'm the kind of dogman who has always looked for a challenge, and this has been the greatest training challenge I have ever faced. It's very rewarding to be consistent enough with the dogs that they respond with the same consistency. And what of dogs that can run, wrestle, play keep away, and work together for hours on end? I would venture to say, most dogs going through a keep still couldn't touch this level of overall deep condition. This past couple of weeks, I had two females naturally choose their stud dog and allow the breeding with no human interaction whatsoever. It dawned on me, "how much different is this experience than shipping a bitch to a strange place to be tied down in a rape stand and bred"? My expectation is large litters from both bitches from one and two matings respectively, as nature took course without any outside pressure. I will report back in 50+ days.

Seriously folks, with a lot of the stuff we do and have done, we strip the dignity away from these dogs. Then we expect 101% from them in return for a half assed effort on our part. It doesn't work that way! I've done every dumb thing there is to do with these dogs in the 29 years I have had them. I followed the rules of the fancy so to speak, for a long time. All of that is out the window now. How much trust do you think it takes to let a 12 week old pup run loose among grown dogs on chain for the first time. I don't know about you, but I want a dog with a stable disposition. Give me a thinking dog! But that begs the question, could the psycho dog who hits everything that moves be reformed? This aspect of training bulldogs is some of the most interesting and inspiring work I have done in this breed, and certainly is as important to me as any prefix or suffix behind the names of dogs we have bred and shown.

Is there anyone else out there who is opening up the whole yard in unity and harmony? I would love to hear your experiences. Is there any interest in learning how to do so?

[Black Hand]

Yeah, I let littermates run loose like that about two years ago. Didn't work out too well for me and these were dogs that never had a tooth in them(until I let them loose). Tried it with mother and daughter also and worked well for a while until one day the mother was excited to see me and did a vertical leap in the air and when she came down she just barely nudged the daughter which caused a full blown fight. She apparently didn't like her mother pushing her around anymore and it wasn't good having a grown bitch on my 11 month old pup like that. Never thought about doing it again because the dog was too valuable to me to wreck.

[Officially Retired]

I have always done some version of this, actually.

I sometimes had Silverback inside with as many as 4 bitches.
Poncho could play with a whole litterful of pups ... he'd lay on his back and let them tear his face apart, ripping his ears, making him bleed, he didn't care and didn't feel it. Was very gentle with pups.

Like everyone, I have had dogs that just "couldn't see hair move" without going ballistic ... but my BEST dogs have always had stable dispositions ... and have the sense to recognize the difference between friend and foe.

Jack

[ragedog10]

Have a bitch that will play with her or any other puppy till about the age of four months old then she at about that time she wont hurt them but she also not rolling on her back for them anymore!
But all puppies are allowed to run the yard free when we are doing yard work!
For me the older dogs teach them how to be a dog early on. And they learn pretty fast whos chain spot they are no longer welcome in and who they can ruff house with! Our one bitch who is the baddest head doctor i have seen will allow pups to eat their share of her feed first then eat wats left!
Now i will never allow the same sex to run in a pack as these dogs turn on pretty young and thats why the older bitch become strick with them to keep her pecking order!
Even to the order in what you feed creats a pecking order! Feed the first dog last when he or she has always been first to eat and watch how the become very vocal and the sudden change up!
I myself would never try the pack thing with dogs that are grown ,but we have done it with young dogs 3-4 months till they were two three years old. We also have two litter mates brothers who were raised together very close that are both GAME dogs who will killing anything else but could careless about each other!
Running bulldogs in a pack is not the best idea or for green horns as you have to be able to read their body language and know if somebody is thinking about challaging another for a higher spot in the pecking order! The one bad head doctor will run lose and not bother any other dog on the yard she plays with her half brother but will tear into anything else and the same for her half brother will scratch into his own shadow but play with her!
If you can understand a dogs world and keep a sharp eye on them to nip any chances of a scrap then it could work, but,but is it worth the risk of a scrap with two and have five other get excited and now you stuck trying to break up seven GAME dogs? For me naw, we let the ones that know whos chain spots to enter run loose!

[S_B]

This is a pretty cool thread!

I myself have always liked a dog smart enough to know the difference between friend and competition. I had two bitch pet bulls at the start of my yard. They helped me raise several litters of bulldogs and could always run with the dogs all throughout their life. At feeding time they would trot through the yard visiting every dog to gather dropped kibbles along the way.

A buddy of mine sent his 3 legged CH to my place for a while. He hold me that my two house dogs would end up dead if left to roam around his dog. It wasn't a week later he was in a submissive stance playing it up with the girls and the joy in his eyes I'll never forget. Dogs are social creatures, allowing them to tap into that doesn't harm their ability to perform whatsoever. Some of the very best dogs I've seen were great around other dogs who were not a threat to them.

S_B

[AGK]

I've always had multiple mutts together. Some take to it well and others there's no way in hell. I've found in 20 years of doing this that it only takes one real incident for some dogs to just simply not ever want to be around the others again. More times than not I have found that certain mutts will tolerate some and not tolerate others. Like they pick and choose whom they will be ok with and whom they simply will not allow in their presence. JM2c....
I have my last 2 girls (9 & 5 years old mother and daughter that have been together from the day the daughter was born yet neither will tolerate other dogs) The daughter will go after her own pups at around 5 to 6 months old. These 2 will be the last ones I will even attempt this with as it only takes a split second for an accident to happen. Usually over something stupid like who barked at the door first...

[ragedog10]

I've always had multiple mutts together. Some take to it well and others there's no way in hell. I've found in 20 years of doing this that it only takes one real incident for some dogs to just simply not ever want to be around the others again. More times than not I have found that certain mutts will tolerate some and not tolerate others. Like they pick and choose whom they will be ok with and whom they simply will not allow in their presence. JM2c....
I have my last 2 girls (9 & 5 years old mother and daughter that have been together from the day the daughter was born yet neither will tolerate other dogs) The daughter will go after her own pups at around 5 to 6 months old. These 2 will be the last ones I will even attempt this with as it only takes a split second for an accident to happen. Usually over something stupid like who barked at the door first...

And that is no lye! Had to young males 5-6 month old let me know it was time to keep them apart over
The lazy boy seat! Lol

[EWO]

I try to leave my dogs together for as long as they can stay that way. Sometimes it is several months and every now and then it is only a matter of weeks. Always different.

My buddy had a female, Ch. Angel, who would run and play with his Heelers all thru the woods. She wrestled and play fought like she did not have a care in the world. Personally I was always waiting for the horrible accident but it never happened. Close a door and step over a wall and she would go absolutely bat shit crazy, a highly intense methodical killer.
Step over the wall, walk out in the yard and she was Scooby Doo all over again.

I had one that could do that til he was about 14-15 months old and then one day he decided no more play time for him. Four legs? Check. Fur? Check. Go berserk? Check that box too.

It is possible to allow them to be together and in some cases it may last a life time. I just think it is flirting with disaster. But to each his own. EWO

[TFX]

Wow! I am overwhelmed that this oddball topic got more than a reply or two. Thanks for the interest, additional stories, and so forth. I would like to respond to all.

Black Hand, I too have had such experiences, which ultimately led me back to the safe path of tradition for many more years. What I have discovered is that issues like this represent a gap in the foundation training of a dog, and even more so, my relationship as absolute leader. Dogs continue to challenge us in the most subtle ways, and if they perceive more wins in those challenges, all respect is lost, even if they still really like us. I don't think this is for everyone or every dog, but it sounds like you were really close to holding it together. Many of us don't recognize these tests or.challenges the dogs throw at us, because they disguise it as play, but they are sneaky basta'ds!

Jack, I have always done it too on a limited basis, but have also had mishaps like I mentioned to Black Hand, and basically said "screw it". I realize now if the individual relationship with the dogs are on the right level, governing the pack just falls in place. It is this foundation of training that has really opened up the possibilities without much fear of chaos breaking out.

Ragedog, VERY keen insights my friend. One point where you and I may differ yet is the idea of "turning on". My older dogs now ran with dogs of mine that had hours of pit time (both now deceased). Perhaps that was actually my greatest accomplishment in this arena, getting them to accept other dogs again outside of that context. I have no doubts any of these dogs would "turn on" if asked by me (not happening!), and then be able to come home and run with the pack. I just don't subscribe to the idea of being on means they cannot control this urge forever more. You make excellent points about pecking order, and greenhorns. I am considering a series of videos that will give people those very tools of reading and working with their dogs individually first, and then with those skills, being able to introduce other dogs who belong to the same leader very naturally. A handfull or two of non bulldog people have seen a couple of videos I have made, and have strongly encouraged me to pursue teaching dog training technique in and out of the breed. I hadn't thought of teaching or videos until their encouragement was so fervent. I decided that if it could help dogs and.dog people, it may be worth pursuing.

SB, it seems like many of us have those old nostalgic stories in our past, but then we let something get in the way, usually too many dogs to deal with on this type of personal level. Shame on us! Bulldogs are social creatures indeed.

AGK, Not every dog is a candidate, that's for certain. I also.want to state here on an important point you mentioned, and that is I think it's foolish to leave them unsupervised in general. I will leave them now for a few minutes, but nothing more. All of.these dogs are down from my DeeCee bitch, and she ran the farm loose for several years. She's the exception, she just had that personality that I could fully trust. Yet, she had been thoroughly tested on multiple occasions.

Thanks again for the responses. I am having the time of my life working with dogs in this way. Many people assume that when they decide to stop "doing" dogs, that getting out is the natural option. When you see dogs running, wrestling and rolling around with each other for hours per week, you learn a lot about the dogs. They blossom physically and mentally, and it's been more fun than any keep I ever worked.

[TFX]

EWO, I came to the conclusion of flirting with disaster years ago, and generally discontinued the practice except for a few exceptions. The deal is though, these exceptions were often the best dogs in other areas too, just like CH Angel. Are there risks? Absolutely! Are there benefits that make it "worth it"? Perhaps, I sure see enough to make me convinced that it's a way to raise exceptionally well rounded, highly conditioned animals. And if it isn't worth it for us, can we consider that it might still be worth it for the sake of the dogs?