the right weight

[scary]

Hey guy's this question has been asked before I'm sure. But any advice information tips anything would be very appreciated. How do you guys figure out their correct contest weight? I know it's not as simple as it seems and alot of the older dogmen just know but I'm not that fortune enough. There only a little bit of information out there or what I could find. And it seems kinda suspect. I really appreciate anything anymore has to offer. Thanks in advance. Scary

[CYJ]

Scary, Old timers or Young timers unless the dog is active and kept lean on the chain. One cannot generally guess the right pulling weight of a dog by just looking at it.

Once you have a dog properly schooled, and in good health. The dog should be put into a four week pre keep. Depending on the time of year and weather, being hot or cold. The dog is slowly worked down to where it is reasonably reduced but still has it full strength.

It is not a exact science, if you have a big boned deep game dog with average mouth etc. Best go in the hot weather, hoping someone brings a hard charging dog that pulls itself off it's feet. Runs hot and quits.

Not everyone believes the same. Usually a good hot weather dog will have four ribs showing and the tip of the hip bones showing, only if the dog is still strong. That is the bottom weight.

I would not recommend pulling a dog as tight as D. Mayfield pulled Tombstone. Only a expert seasoned dog man can pull that off. Note that was also done in the hot weather and in that Texas desert climate. Don Mayfield knew beyond a doubt that Tombstone was a deep game dog. Tombstone was also a big boned, tough hided, rugged type dog. Tombstone was like a Timex Watch, able to take a licking and keep on ticking. LOL

Bobby Hall and friends let Don sucker them into that event and I believe more than once at other times. The only other dog man known in his hey day, able to pull dogs that tight and keep their strength was Mr. Howard Teal. Mr. Teal and Don Mayfield were good friends in their hey days. When I had taken Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner to a major dog show years back. A few of those dog men called me to the side at the concessions, bought me a hot dog/coke etc. Talking real friendly, finally they got around to asking me how I thought Mr. Teal was pulling those dogs so tight and keeping them strong. Which I really did not know,and told them best just go ask Mr. Teal. LOL

A hard mouth, fast fighting all out charging dog, is best shown in the colder cooler weather. This type dog can be showed with more weight. Around three ribs showing and no hip bones showing. Providing the dog is strong and is working cool. Still want a big boned dog for the weight. You have to get that from the dogs you select and the brood pen.

To get it right over time, do a 4 week pre keep for the dog you plan to show. If you have the best weight figured out. If possible try to get your dog entered into the next weight pulling dog show. You just proceed right into the main keep of around 8 weeks. The next show is to far off, put the dog back on the chain or pen. Depending on the weather and activity of the dog. Can put back on up to three pounds to keep dog in good health.

By doing pre keeps on dogs you plan to have a last schooling look at. Do enough of these, you will learn how to properly condition and find the best pulling weight for your dogs. All the problems and things one needs to learn about making weight and conditioning a dog will usually crop up during those first four weeks of a dedicated work keep.

You try to glean the best information you can. Figure out according to your location and how much land you live on, the type climate you live in generally. That will probably dictate the best choice of equipment you can use.

One will learn best by just doing. I had lots of books with articles back then on feeding and conditioning keeps. I learned to glean out what worked for me. I had a very good dog conditioner as my dog partner. He helped me out a lot. But over time I found out I could not just do things his way 100%. I had to develop a system that worked for me and my time schedule. Plus the type dogs I had and were dealing with. Cheers

[EGK]

Agreed, every word CYJ said... If you're looking for a regimen of work. Just work your dog for 4 weeks and not your ego. You'll know the good days and bad days. All dogs are just not a like. Any keep you get is just a base keep. Not working the dog and watching it as an individual is the easiest way to hurt it in keep. I can't say it enough, work the dog not the keep.

[scary]

Thanks for taking the time to reply cyj

[EWO]

Great post CYJ.

Basically it is finding the lowest possible weight in which your dog will optimally perform. The 4 week plan mentioned is a good idea incorporating the very tools that will be used when it is a 'for real' situation. This is just using one of the tools but it would be the principle for all of them combined.

Just for numbers sake, the dog weighs 50lbs and can pull 25% of his bodyweight on a steady walk for 1 hour and he is beat, can't do anymore for that day. Cut his feed til he is 49. He pulls the 25% again for 1 hour and again he is beat for the day. Cut his feed til he is 48. Pull that 25% for 1 hour and he is beat at 1 hour. Cut him to 47 and at 55 minutes he is beat and can do no more that day. 47 is too light for him at this time. So 48 will be his ideal weight.

Several theories on 48 being his ideal weight. Refer to CYJ's post for adjusting based on the dog's style and maybe even the opponent's style.

At 48 he is perfect. I like to add a pound and call him at 49. I prefer to work the dog on pit weight and then feed him up every day the last half of the keep. On average a show lasts :45-:55 minutes. Some a lot shorter but the 2 plus hour deals are not the norm. If the dog is perfect at 48, called at 49, at the :50 minute mark he is just about on that perfect 48 mark at the end of the average gathering.

Some will work him at 49-50 and then draw him to 48 the last couple of weeks. It becomes a matter of personal preference, outside temperature, style, being kept inside or outside, type of work, type of worker.

The dogs have an optimal weight and that is always a singular number. It is 48, not 48 or 49. Some of the true athletes can have a window of a pound or so either way. Some perform in spite of the weight called and some (a lot) succumb due to the chosen weight.

It's an art. It takes time and experience. Just dialing in on a weight is rather easy, dialing in on the correct weight is the most important part of the show. EWO

[EWO]

The weight cut should be done over time. Starving a dog to a weight will give a false measurement of strength and conditioning. A cut in feed will do it but the work will do it as well.

The hour is not a hard number. As the dog is worked and fed he will get stronger and better conditioned. He will be able to do more as the work continues so the idea is to dial him in with work and food rather than crash him down and call him out.

Lots of time and effort involved. The first one will be really hard and one will really second guess himself all the way through. The next one will get a little easier as one will correct his mistakes and make adjustments. The more and more times it is completed a person will start to get desired effects and notice them along the way. In time your mind will process he is here, after we do this and that he will be there, so I can call him at XXX. At that point, that is the "EYE" mentioned in the first post. EWO

[CYJ]

Hello Scary, when reading about topics like dog conditioning. Always look for those little bits or pearls of good advice from these notable dog men like EWO/James Crenshaw and many others. One reason, it is just impossible to put into total detail on paper, all the things that may be done in a keep.

There is no exact, one way to do this sort of event, due to so many variables. That is where one has to plan ahead, be prepared. Have the Cart set up right and filled with all the necessities before hooking up the horse. Do pre keeps to learn more about how to overcome Murphy's Laws of probabilities. LOL

Note that pearl of good advise EWO Throwed out there. Setting the show weight a pound over the dog's best lowest show weight. This allows a dog not to be overcome by dehydration. If a dog's weight pulling show goes a long time. Helps a dog to maintain it's strength, from going into shock and recover faster after the show. More dogs have been lost from sever dehydration than about anything else. Every time a dog goes through a hard event along with severe dehydration. Is liken to over stretching a rubber band to many times.

In the conditioning section on this site, probably where this topic should be as well. Note the topic on Correct weight and read the J. Crenshaw keep, entered by Yig Yang. Note some good pearls of advice in that keep.
(1) Arrive thirty hours before show time. This allows one enough time to adjust the last feeding and amount of fluids needed to point and keep dog on it's show weight.
(2) Using no solids but a good strong chicken broth. That if extra is needed, can be given up to three hours before show time.
(3)James allowed one hour before feeding a dog after a hard workout. Now time in the cool down walk and rub down time can be included in that hour of time before feeding. Needs to be factored as well in the total time from feeding time to feeding time. So one can adjust out the correct feeding times and amounts on those last three rest days. Counting time backwards from the weigh in time. This is done the last week based on the dog's main P.M. workout and feeding time after all the work/cool down/rub down and then fed.

I got some good info from a old pre keep program that was written by Maurice Carver in the SDJ, one tid bit was feeding a 28 to 30 hours out on those rest days counting backwards from that weigh in time, before a show. Based on that last hard work day and fourth and last major feeding before going into those last three day rest day feeding cycles. Now today with some dog men using 100% raw diets that feeding cycle on those last three rest days could vary. Most dog men stay around 26/28/30 hours on that last feeding before weigh in.

After reading how D. Mayfield solved the inherit problems of the Jenny by taking the arm out to forty feet and using a extra wide dog collar on the dog in stead of a harness. Preparing and keeping a soft running track for the dog to run on etc.

I liked what the Round Table had to offer versus a tread mill. Being a excellent back up to the Jenny when bad weather and rain makes a Jenny unusable. So I looked at the problems with it. Some negative factors were round tables being made to small, with to much up and down bounce. These type tables can injure a dogs shoulders/various joints and foot pads. Tables not padded properly or padded to thick,wrong type material for the dog to run on. If Built to high off the ground, most dogs will run tense and afraid of falling off the edge. Best around knee high off the ground. The overhead pulling beam not set at the right section over the table.

Once I over came those problems, took it out to 16 feet and wanted to go 20 foot total across length. Was no harder are cost wise to do, I did not have a wide enough building to allow a safe working space to the side. My building was a 30 foot long by 20 foot wide. On these extra large round tables you need at least four feet of a safe working space.

Once I did, I had another cat's meow piece of training equipment that allowed the dog to stretch out, lope and jog trot very similar to the Swing Jenny. Plus a bulldog even down to puppies love these big tables like a guinea pig loves it's squirrelly cage. LOL I found were a dog would not work a Jenny or Treadmill, will work a table like they have been running one for years. Go figure

A well written article on how to best use one of these type of Round Table mills. I found in a old 1950's Blood lines Journal. Maybe written by Frank Fitzwater. Back in those days many of the now deceased old timers wrote various articles on their thoughts of conditioning and types of work equipment. How much time on the average, would give the over all best conditioning to a dog. These articles were posted in those older Bloodlines journals.

There are two pieces of good advice in a article in the SDJ written by D. Mayfield from George Saddler and Earl Tudor. George Saddler believed in working a dog the same amount of time for three days before increasing the work. He was a strong advocate on hand walking like J. Crenshaw. Earl Tudor stressed some rest days in a keep.

Even though worm medications have improved, I liked the information given by D. Mayfield in one of those SDJ articles on worming a dog during a keep. Using his time schedule and the newer meds found in Ca. Jack's Pit Bull Bible section should work today. Cheers

[EWO]

Great post. Always spot on. EWO

[Officially Retired]

That was a great post.

I used to have a lot of trouble picking the weight myself. Truman came in 3 lb light, Mac came in a 1 lb light, and Poncho came in 1.5 lb light (and 3 lb under his best weight).

People always give me shit for "losing more than I won," but that was back in 1990, 1994, and 1995, respectively.

I've learned quite a bit since then

Honestly, though, I never had a conditioning mentor during the early stages of my dogmanship. The people I got associated with early (Faron, Patrick, Hollingsworth) were all breeders, who really didn't know shit about conditioning, calling weights, etc. Consequently, I really didn't know shit about these things either ... and for a long time.

But what I did learn how to do was breed high-percentage dogs

Over time, of course, I eventually met some really good conditioners and (after I quit my job in 1999 to breed dogs exclusively) ... at which point I quickly went from 5-10 dogs to 30-65 dogs ... and was rolling-out a gazillion dogs constantly ... and part of what I did was experiment with their weights.

Another key thing that happened over the course of the years was my meeting "The Old Man" who was part of The A-Team, and even though he wasn't much of a conditioner, what that mofo knew how to do (as good or better as anyone I have ever seen) was call the right weight

This dude had been doing dogs since the mid-60s, had faced pretty much anybody who was anybody in dogs (Mayfield, Hall, Burton, Indian Sonny, Tant, Hargrove, Meaddors, Murphy, Strothers, Crenshaw, Rebel, etc.), you name them he faced them. And beat most of them. Believe this or not, most of the time he did NOT even condition the dogs he used when facing people at this level of the game

He would just chain his dogs on a 15-20' heavy chain, on the side of the hill, up near the front door of his place ... and the dogs would get excited and constantly run that huge, long chain uphill/downhill throughout the day. Then he would pay a walker (his nephew) to walk the dog in the evening for several miles. And that's it. His "keep food" was Diamond Green bag, plus liver, plus a can of Veg-All vegetables

Don't laugh, because he beat some of the best dogmen, and dogs, in the game

In fact, he used to say he would PAY someone to use a treadmill against him ... and he would PAY for their steroids too

He said no way in hell was a part-time, mill-run dog, bulked-up on steroids, going to have a snowball's chance in hell of beating HIS dog ... that was conditioning itself all day, every damned moment of his life, drawn down to a MASSIVE weight for its size.

His dogs were drawn down to "all rawhide and sinew" and were always HUGE compared to his opponents ... and (for the most part) he won over some "top conditioners" ... primarily because (1) he knew what a bulldog was and (2) he really did know how to call a "best possible weight" on his animals.

The guy wasn't a "part-time dogman" either ... showing "1 dog a year" like a lot of guys () ... No, this guy had 3 yards of dogs, paid people to do what I just described, and pretty much had a match going (sometimes) every weekend, but at least once a month, for the 5 years I rented one of his properties. And he'd been doing this for about as long as I have been alive.

I learned a lot about calling a dog's weight just by hanging out with him, and speculating alongside him about "What do you think his best weight's goin' to be?" ... on a lot of his dogs over the course of 5 years.

Wish I would have known all that I learned ... back when I started

Jack

[EWO]

Me and Mr. Crenshaw in the same sentence is a stretch, I mean a real stretch.


My first experiences were all about matching dogs. The guy that helped me the most would never be considered a breeder, and the kicker is it was by design, he simply didn't see the point in the time and effort it took dealing with brood dogs and/or puppies. It was all about winning matches. In turn, that is how I thought the bulldog world went 'round. Missed out on a lot of stuff and a lot of dogs that would have/should have/could have been big contributors didn't make it to the show. But back then it was all about the show. EWO